Yeah this is yet another good point…and also thing is Mai can counter that with her Line moves…thus meaning I now KNOW the counter for the most potent weapons of Kim, Sokaku and Billy…
So Billy is in Top plane wants to whore C?
With Mai I’m gonna beat it with Bottom+C…now HES GOTTA TURTLE.
Billy is is Bottom Plane I’m in Top? I’m gonna beat him with Top Down+C Slide…
Once again hes gotta turtle…its a very strategic game at a high level!!!
With Mai I now annoy the fuck out of you with Top+C and Bottom+C to qcb+Cx5… :devil:
IMO RB2 tung is a toned down version of RBS EX Tung, the A+C,C chain is usefull to cross up after a throw but I suggest to move back and forth to make ambiguous where Tung will be placed after the chain so I don’t think it’s useless. As you and I said the damage and the play style are his weakness but with THAT good normals Tung has a good weapon always available (example Duck is great when he has Spower/red life bar, but these aren’t always available) so i think he hasn’t no terrible matchup. The REAL problem is to not make mistakes, less than with the other characters.
It’s all about match ups dude, i hate tier lists because seems a character is weeker than everyone listed higher and stronger than everyone listed lower, this is a bullshit, only a match up chart can clarify who beats who. Tung is a particular case because with (IMO) many odd matchups he reaches a mid layer without having advantages on the lower tiered chars (but neither great disadvantages with those classified better).
I consider low tier Cheng, Duck, Mary (without EM obviously, making a different tier list when characters have red life could be very interesting and more clarifying!) and maybe Joe but i don’t know much about him, in Japan is less used than Tung.
Some examples of Tung balance: Duck without S.power has only good pokes, but Tung’s are better, so Tung can kick his ass all the day, when Duck can do the Break Spiral, Tung needs to jump more to avoid to get thrown and this mean his ground game is less effective.
I think we all agree Kim is Top or High tier with a lot a good matchups in his favor but against Tung what does he have of that good? Without fireballs or long range attack is a fight hand-to-hand, and trust me with his priority a good Tung who knows how to take the right distance from Kim can be really annoying with the far C.
I use Cheng and do quite well with him. He’s definitely MUCH better then Tung to me.
Cheng doesn’t get raped in many matches- (Krauser, Hon, and Mary likely his worst matchups)
I agree with Soh pretty much, though I would like to ask: Why wouldn’t Andy & Laurence be down there as well? Laurence seems kinda like Duck to me - overly dependent on one super. And I don’t see how Andy’s any better than Joe.
But yeah, I never really bought into Tung as low-tier - people think he is just because he’s really boring and they don’t like to play that way. Steve Harrison could be a monster with him…
Hmm, I thought we had this Tung discussion back in the old thread .
But anyway, here’s what’s already been said about lil’ ol’ Tung back in November.
One from December:
And here’s when Tung came up again back in February.
Tung’s low because so many of his moves have some sort of caveat that greatly reduces it’s usefulness.
Yeah, his dashing :snka: is a good poke, but it’s still just a jab; it’s going to be beaten by most, if not all, :snka:+:snkb:'s, and anytime there’s a trade, chances are Tung’s going to lose out on damage.
As mentioned before, the :snka:+:snkb: -> :snkc: is Tung’s one overhead outside of his P-Power, however it has frame disadvantage on hit, enough so to get thrown. This is especially dangerous on chars with command throws and throw supers (landing this overhead on a <50% Duck can easily equal Tung taking 40% damage).
His :qcf:+:snka: fireball has less range than others, does very little damage (about that of two jabs).
The :dp:+:snkb:, on the good side, has the invincibility of Escalation Mary’s Vertical Arrow (which is nothing short of insane) and juggles from the stronger versions :qcb:+:p:, an anti-aired P-Power, and in some rare cases, itself. However, it’s very inconsistent. It may only hit once or twice, or in some rare instances, whiff completely: causing you to lose out on a bunch of damage.
The :qcb:+:p: is a good move. Far and away his best asset. If only the :snkc:-version comboed from anything, then it do wonders for his damage. As it stands, though, :qcb:+:snka: is what you’re going to be using 99% of the time.
Anyone who’s used Tung knows that his :qcf:+:snkc: is, without question, the worst move in the game.
Only combos from a deep jump-in C, does miserable damage, low priority, leaves Tung unsafe on hit, block, or miss. :wtf:
Two of Tung’s best moves (for some insane reason) can only be done with the taunt: meaning that it’s heavily telegraphed and can’t be done in a combo.
The S-Power has already been explored, and the P-Power loses hits and damage when used in a juggle and as an anti-air (which it does unreliably) and is quite unsafe on block / whiff.
Tung just has a host of problems in RB2. Yes, he can be played safely if you center your game around the :qcb:+:snka:, but he lacks damage, mindgames, many of his moves are unreliable, positioning plays an enormous part in his game, and the amount of risk he has to open himself to in order to do damage is disproportionate to the amount of damage dealt, and unlike some other chars (Mai, Duck, etc) he doesn’t have any solid supers to fall back on.
While I hate tiers as much as the next guy, they do exist and it’s a necessary evil (which is why, as you may have noticed from the old thread, is something I wanted to get out of the way early). It’s one of the first things players ask, often cause thread derailments, and are often disputed. Player skill can account for some of that, but it doesn’t change the fact that Tung’s :qcf:+:snkc: is worthless, that he has no mindgames, that his damage is lacking, and that his best moves come out of his taunts (and the limitations therein).
If you sit back in the corner in a defense crouch and use breakshots there is nothing Tung can do about it.
If you hop, they just stand, block, then go back to crouching.
If you do his overhead, they could let it hit, and retaliate with a guaranteed throw (or worse, a command throw) for more damage than you dealt.
And any move he has that can chip leaves him vulnerable to breakshots.
Other low (and near-low) chars have more options in that same situation.
Cheng still has 2 overheads, a few low attacks, a vicious breakshot, a way to set up throws, and a relatively safe way of chipping.
Mai, despite not having any overheads, can still safely chip.
Duck has a good overhead, and a variety of ways of setting up throws (including his dreaded Break Spiral).
The reason why Tung is low is because for how bad everyone else has it, Tung has it worse.
Also, btw, I just wanted to emphasize that even though I’ve mentioned the point in this thread, “Japan plays this game” doesn’t automatically mean that we should play it too. I just thought it was interesting to point out what experienced high-level players think of the various Real Bout games, but that’s not the ultimate argument in and of itself. I just play the game because I find it very engaging and enjoyable even in the most serious competitive setting.
I actually did that in my tier list with particular chars who got a noticeable boost at <%50: Mary, Duck, Krauser and Xiang-Fei being ones who become a lot more dangerous when in the red (with Duck being at the top of the list, that Break Spiral is a scary S-Power).
I love how Duck Kings 360 really only works for me when I do a reverse 360 (actually HCB+up+BC) same with Geese’s P-Power.
Yet…when I do Geese’s kara 360+a or p-power i can do it either way.
Its either Im going crazy or my execution just sucks.
On the other news: My Duck has finally gotten back into shape especially after my dismal performance at FRXI.
edit:
Almost forgot. yall use nFBA to play this right?
I got all that downloaded and want to try how well this p2p thing works. I tried it for ST it is was actually pretty damned good. Josh, we should get a match sometime.
Most of us use MAME for it I believe. I see people keep wanting to spread the use of this nFBA thing, but I cannot se why.
MAME does the job perfectly, rarely desyncs, and also allows for overclocking of the emulated machine. The only things I have heard of this nFBA so far are negative.
As long as you use the Kaillera P2P client, your games will only be affected by your distance to your opponent, and of course, your connection. There will not be lag, but there will always be some noticeable input delay if you play over great distances. This is physically impossible to remove frankly because of the time the signal uses to reach the other location.
For the Duck King 360, I think his 360 has shorter range than the P-power 360 moves. I am not sure, but I have also always had more trouble performing this move than the others. Still, nowadays I perform it with 95% accuracy, and I can perform it both ways, so there is no special trick to performing it really.
quick note o tungs defense. yes hes got no options against a turtling corner opponent. but after a hop, he can throw. which is basically his only option if the opponent keeps on turtling in the corner waiting for a breakshot.
compared to say, yamazaki, if the opponents is turtling i the corner, you can pretty much mix his game up with the high low attacks, and his command grab and ppower grab. also, am i the only one who hates yamazakis command throw execution (F, B, D, U+C)? fun thing with yama, doing the overhead, and you notice the opponent trying to hit you, do a C before that and trade hits or beat him out of it. if he tries to block high, cancel it to his command grab or ppower if you got it. simple, yet so effective.
Yes, his command grab is annoying. A 360 motion would make it easier to use. The most annoying thing with the :r::l::d::u:+:snkc: motion is that it is difficult to use as a reversal.
Yes, Yama’s :r::snka: overhead is very useful, but I think you are exaggerating when you say “if he tries to block high, cancel it to his command grab or ppower if you got it”.
The overhead is kara cancellable, but only in the very start, so I am not sure that you can confirm your opponents block quickly enough to change your mind.
i didn’t say it was b+B geese good, its good in its own right. besides doing the overhead and hearing yamazaki say ura ura automatically makes most people block high again. meaning after a heavy jump in, doing the overhead close will also make the amount of time go away so that you are able to throw again, making it another useful thing. for instance, jumping in with a hard attack, you just keep walking forward and forward not being able to throw. while canceling the f+A takes that time away, makes your opponent freak out a little, and gives you the opportunity to throw.
and yes, the worst part about the motion for the command grab is trying to do a reversal. even in the past like 10 years ago, i still remember blocking a strong of attacks, knowing im in the position to throw, but i gotta be real fast. doing the motion for the command grab, and being to slow or inputting the command wrong would make me fuck up sometimes.
and fuck a 360. why should krauser be the only one to do command grabs with HCF or HCB motions. yamazakis should have been HCF+C, just like his kof97 self. this way, yamazaki would have been even better.
I don’t want to change the way of thinking of anyone here, only let me give my last 2 cents on Tung so more information we share, more everyone can make his own point o view.
This is a poor point, pratically every pokes in the game can be beaten by a well timed A+B, not to mention jump-ins and many many special (and supers with no start up invicibility), and Tung has an A+B better than others.
Personally A+B moves are a shame in this game and I hate players who abuse of them. There’s no need of skills to perform them, every retard can mash 2 bottons to win a conflict or cause double collision and fucks up the pressing (especially on wake up), some characters becomes untouchable (see Yamazaki’s foward+A,C), seriously outside combos I would ban them all in tournaments, but it is better to continue this later in another circumstance…
I agree, i use that chain only in wake up mind games or at least as an overhead (and risky) final blow if I have a lot of life, but let me add that is still possible to do a dp+B in reversal against character who don’t have command throws so you can’t be 100% sure to punish Tung.
Yes, but it’s not a move to use at long distance, but near the opponent (with care), in fact it has a good pushback, can combo and eats fireballs (and it hit).
If connects and done at the right distance it’s hardly punishable even in corner.
All you need to use are: qcb+A, qcf+A and the Ppower, the rest is garbage, for the reasons already said.
Dp+B could be used as antiair only if the opponent jumps in front you, not above or it will whiff, so it sucks but Tung don’t need other anti-air, he has A+B, df+A (which can be chain cancelled in the A+B, usefull if you input the df+A a bit fast), the P-power and can dash forward under the opponent and hit him from the behind (only the best players can do this).
Qcb+A and qcf+A are safe from the right distance, against some characters they are safe even with the opponent in corner, especially qcf+C unless they breakshot or use the most fast moves in the game like Kim’s P-power.
IMO the damage Tung does is proportionate to how he is safe, otherwise it would be a monster.
He has 2 mindgames and i have just written them above:
ground cross up with the A+B,C chain on wake up
fast combo / empty jump-> throw
Don’t underestimate the last one due the fact everyone can empty jump-> throw, because the difference of frames between a late air B and a possibile throw after landing, made this sick.
Seriously dude, it’s true that Tung must pay a lot more attention when the opponent is in corner but what you say is easy only at words.
Breakshots requires meter so they aren’t always available and again it’s hard to breakshot Tung’s dash A, far C, so how you keep away Tung before he throws you?
You can poking but Tung is one of the best limbs trader in the game thanks to the far C, you can do dragon punches but the fast combo leaves you a few time to input the command and first of all you need to take a life advantage so you must deal Tung when the match starts.
Also standing always in the corner allow Tung to stay away and build meter with his qcf+A, so he can use breakshot too.
The only characters can use well your strategy are Kim and Bob due their charge down DPs and the good pokes.
Irrelevant, this is true for every non-grab move in the game, just breakshot on the last hit.
For what i’ve seen seems that you guys have never challenge a good Tung user, and i can understand because even in Japan there are few good Tung players and playing him online it’s everythig except easy (it’s harder to trade limbs, it’s easier to make execution mistakes and get hit…)
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