The New Definitive HDTV Lag FAQ

scottind · January 29, 2009, 7:17am

Toshiba Regza 37" LCDTV 37AV50 60hz w/ Cinespeed
720p lags 2 frames
480p lags 2 frames
480i lags 4 frames

Emprex LCD 32" Model3202
720p lags 1 frame
480p lags 1 frame
480i lags 4 frames

AbeFroman · January 29, 2009, 7:22am

VPT:

Hey I don’t want to bombard the new thread with questions, but *ONE *more thing crossed my mind, lol. I’ve read everything in the original post but I still get the feeling that there’s something I’m not getting. So I have two last questions:

Why does Game Mode have to be turned on? In other words, why can’t it just be incorporated and be left on all of the time? What’s the advantage of turning it off?

The original statement made regarding postprocessing (“Postprocessing consists of additional features on HDTVs to clean up or “improve” the visual picture quality of images (example: 1080p signal from PS3 to 1080p Samsung HDTV still has lag).”) leaves me scratching my head. From what I can gather, it seems that consoles were not intended to be played on retail HDTV’s. If all easily available HDTV’s have some degree of input lag, then why should anybody buy one to play games? Does this mean that the majority of people playing HDR or SFIV on their HDTV’s are going to have input lag? What am I missing?

avsforums.com dude. You’ll get your answers there.

edit: Or just ask Cynn, he definately knows his sh1t.

EndlessMike · January 29, 2009, 7:25am

Capcom should know and they know how in SFs every milisecond counts, how do we know they haven’t implemented some system which somehow makes SF4 lag free?

Spiku · January 29, 2009, 7:58am

I have some questions. Does everything stated in this FAQ also apply to PC monitors at all? Specially PC monitors hooked to a console via HDMI.

I have a 24.5" Full 1080p 2ms LCD monitor that I bought on x-mas which is currently hooked up to my 360 through VGA (non-elite model). This is the setup that I plan to use 90% of the time to play SF4. So according to your FAQ, I should be pretty safe with VGA correct?

Also, I have a 50" Panasonic 720p/1080i Plasma HDTV which I mostly use for movies. In the past I have noticed quite a bit of lag when playing Rock Band 1, so noticeable that I had to go into the settings and try to calibrate my TV. So I know for sure my TV lags. My question is, without a VGA port nor gaming mode on my HDTV, is there another way to reduce the lag? Thanks.

wepeel · January 29, 2009, 8:03am

This thread is a godsend!!!
Thank you poonage.

I have a Sony WEGA TV. Despite the fact that it is CRT (tube), it has about 30-35ms of lag when calibrated with Rock Band 2’s wireless guitar(video lag only, no audio lag). Just a heads up for other WEGA owners. I barely noticed it in fighting games but I definitely noticed it on music games, such as the drum fill mode on Rock Band 2. It’s only very slightly off, but it is there.

System_1 · January 29, 2009, 8:21am

I have a Toshiba 56HM195 (2005 model) and I don’t own either of those silly games but from what I read online, there isn’t any lag on the older Tosh DLPs.

I wonder if anyone here has one.

DemonLos · January 29, 2009, 10:07am

Input lag times on Samsung 650 series LCD’s

This is taken from this thread over at the AVS forums.

VGA mode / 1080p.

Average lag: 0-8ms
0.0-0.5 frame delay.
Average FD: 0.3 Frame (~a third of a frame)
59.7 cycles per second (of 60)
Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.
(approved for pro level gaming)

VGA mode / any PC resolution accepted by the 650. 480P and 720P will not work in VGA.

Average lag: 0-8ms
0.0-0.5 frame delay.
Average FD: 0.3 Frame (~a third of a frame)
59.7 cycles per second (of 60)
Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.
(approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI2 PC mode / 1080p.

Average lag: 6-15ms
0.3-1 frame delay.
Average FD: 0.6 Frame (~half a frame)
59.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.
(approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI GAME mode / 1080p.

Average lag: 15-25ms
1-2 Frame delay.
Average FD: 1.5 Frame
58.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Detectable lag only for remarkably sensitive people.
(approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI Movie Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.

Average lag: 50-60ms
3-4 frame delay
Average FD: 3.5 Frame
56.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.
(NOT approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.

Average Lag: 50-60ms
3-4 frame delay
Average FD: 3.5 Frame
56.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.
(NOT approved for pro level gaming)

Component Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.

Average Lag: 80-100ms
5-6 frame delay
Average FD: 5.5 Frame
54.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Detectable lag for most game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.
(NOT approved for pro level gaming)

Thanks to gmanvbva, from AVS, for extensively testing this using the PC method.

As you can see VGA is clearly the way to go with this set if you want near lagless gaming. But the picture quality and movie quality will suffer somewhat. HDMI2 labled PC has slightly more lag but if you rename the input to anything other than PC, you get all the processing back and a beautiful picture for movies and games that aren’t as lag sensitive as fighters. I’m very happy with my 650!

poonage · January 29, 2009, 10:17am

Wow, those are some kickass specs for the 650! Thanks for sharing and congrats on your purchase. The VGA mode looks perfect (as expected) but it sounds like the HDMI2 PC Mode is a real godsend.

TS · January 29, 2009, 10:36am

An old post from the other HDTV lag thread:

TS:

Just got a Toshiba (32)av502u.

Some informal results:

Saturn stuff plays pretty damned good, basically no lag (either that or there’s so little that I adjusted pretty much immediately). The downside is that the video stutters, like the refresh rate decreases or the clock speed increases or whatever. At seemingly random intervals , the game will get choppy and you will see afterimages for about a second and a half. It will definitely fuck with anything you do by visual cues (ie. custom combos etc in some games) instead of muscle memory.

This is with Game Mode on- with it off it looks better, but of course there’s an input delay. While it’s not catastrophic, it’s enough that it gets old, pretty damned fast (especially when you have the Game Mode option available). However, more bad news. As I mentioned earlier, Saturn handles input lag better than PS2 just in the general sense. So I assume those results will be less promising.

I’ll do some more tests over the weekend, just thought I’d post something.

Toshiba av502u I was mentioning, I got a chance to try out the PS2 on it.

Looking pretty good. Lag noticable in normal mode (using component cables), but game mode tone it down pretty good. Using composite (yellow cable)+game mode there was either no lag, or very, very little. As a caution, I tested this using a PS2 pad, which I suck on. I was testing Alpha 3 from Alpha Anthology, which is a game I’m pretty familiar with, but still. Just for the sake of being comprehensive, I also tested out a VGA in (using the HD Box pro), and an S-video input. S-video maybe slightly better than component (RGB), but still not as good as composite. You do get that weird frameskipping thing like with the Saturn when you turn Game Mode on, I’m guessing you should expect to see that on this model of TV whenever you have an s-video+game mode situation. VGA wasn’t bad, but not noticeably better than Component + game mode or s-video with it.

This is on in the default 480i PS2 mode. On some games you can hold down the triangle and X buttons and it’ll put you in progressive mode (480p). This didn’t really improve much. Component in normal mode was slightly better, I can’t say if there was any difference in Game Mode. 480p mode means composite won’t run, so it’s ultimately a minus, at least for this game.

I also tried using an RF switch for the Saturn, but no dice- same amount of lag as S-video in normal mode, but when you use the RF, Game Mode isn’t available as an option. I don’t have any composite cables for the Saturn anymore, but I suspect they’d work OK. I did use a SCART cable and run it through a component converter, and other than weird color, it wasn’t any different than s-video, at least that I remember.

I know it’s important to mention this as all of you plan on buying HDTVs just to play Saturn games.

So, I don’t know how to do any sophisticated tests to actually give numbers for lag in the various modes for various consoles. What I can say, is that if you’re looking around for HDTVs which may be OK for gaming, give this model or a comparable one a playtest.

edit: I should add that my PS2 video cable has a little TV/HDTV switch on it. I’m operating on the assumption that this doesn’t make a huge difference, especially given that Composite seemed to generate the best results for A3 anyway.

Since then I got a regular composite (red/white/yellow) a/v cables for my Saturn to test, seems like basically no lag in game mode, but still the random ghosting still exists, though not as bad as with the s-video cables IIRC. You win this round, PS2. :mad:

I also tested a DC with a VGA cable, seemed to be playable, but I can’t really say. Given the results I’ve had with PS2/Saturn, I wouldn’t be surprised if the composite video were better.

Generally though, results are sort of in line with the other Toshi results in this thread;

So hopefully some of the higher-end Toshibas (mind is kind of a low-end model) gernerally also have good game modes. Again, I can’t run any legit tests, but I would suggest you at least try out a Toshiba if you’re shopping around.

Critically, it is important for me to mention that I haven’t tested any Xbox 360/PS3 games, so I can’t speak as to lag for games being converted from any resolution above 480p. Given my results with PS2 games in progressive mode (480p), they might be far less promising.

Game mode on my TV lowers the resolution of what’s being shown, yes.

System_1 · January 29, 2009, 10:54am

You should read the FAQ more or perhaps something more in depth. You seem to still be lacking an understanding in said subject.

Yeah it should, sadly. It turns off all the post processing effects so your TV can concentrate on running a fast image not a pretty one. That’s the sacrifice you make for a shorter ms loss.

For those in the market for something a little better looking the 550 and 450 have HDMI2/PC modes. While the screen itself isn’t as nice looking as the 650 it’s a great budget alternative.

Master_Chibi · January 29, 2009, 11:58am

Stupid question, HDMI cables are pretty much the standard now for HD gaming?

I have >this< monitor which doesn’t have HDMI inputs in it, but I’m clueless if it does ‘HD gaming’ or what have you as it only has a few ports back there.

Just asking in case I could use it for PS3 gaming, or if I’m better off with a new television.

;p

System_1 · January 29, 2009, 12:01pm

More than perfect. You just need to hook it up VGA style.
http://www.mayflash.com/vgabox/vga004/vga004.htm
Something like this should help. Because it’s a monitor and VGA it should be pretty lagless.

Master_Chibi · January 29, 2009, 12:05pm

Wow, seriously?

(I’m a complete idiot when it comes to these things).

:looney:

Dipez · January 29, 2009, 12:11pm

KDL-40S4100 has like 6 or 7 ms of delay( doesnt matter or effect me) great tv.

will you be making a list for the TVs that are posted? i might be able to get a few more tv tests done.

tested using 360 at default game resolution.

dont hate if my results are a little off. just correct me.

System_1 · January 29, 2009, 12:17pm

Don’t sweat it. Honestly, there aren’t alot of VGA ps3 cables around so not alot of people know they exist.

On another not, probably picking up either an Aquos 44u or a samsung 550/450. Both seem to have around 30ms but the samsungs seem to beat it out with the HDMI2/PC mode.

kariido · January 29, 2009, 1:13pm

Thank you, poonage! Subscribed.

deadfrog · January 29, 2009, 2:50pm

Poonage! Gooood shit, man!!

http://hdtvlag.googlepages.com/home

This is a very layman’s guide I found a while back on how to test an HDTV for lag as accurately as possible. It’s definitely equipment intensive and the methods are semi-predictable given all the tools you’re working with, but it’s definitely worth a read for anyone who has all this stuff and wants to try and doesn’t know where to start.

scottind · January 29, 2009, 4:45pm

HDMI is convinient and all, and is a plus for color, but on testing on the Sony XBRs, HDMI causes de-syncing from the audio compared to the analog vga.

so imo HDMI is not the “end all” solution to fix lag.

System_1 · January 29, 2009, 7:13pm

Am I correct in assuming that this FAQ also applies to digital projectors? If so, does anyone know if they’re generally better or worse, or just the same variability?

(I’m a CRT man myself, but some clarification here would be helpful.)

kariido · January 29, 2009, 8:15pm

What kind of LCDs are used in Evo?