The New Definitive HDTV Lag FAQ

[poonage]

Yeah I doubt SF4 is gonna lag considering, you know the game is pretty much made in HD with being played on HDTVs in mind. Not to mention Capcom heavily caters to the HDTV audience (Dead Rising for example had problems on SDTVs).

Uhh, yeah, HDTV lag doesn’t have anything to do with the actual game title.

Why do games lag on HDTVs?

There are two different reasons for this, and either one or both can contribute to the overall delay on an HDTV.

A] Scaling/Deinterlacing: The HDTV is fed a signal different from its native resolution. The HDTV experiences a processing delay while scaling the signal (example: 480i signal from PS2 to 1080p HDTV).
B] Postprocessing: Postprocessing consists of additional features on HDTVs to clean up or “improve” the visual picture quality of images (example: 1080p signal from PS3 to 1080p Samsung HDTV still has lag).

[ShinMagus]

this is the dumbest thread thus far (today)…VERY Little if ANY HDTV’s lag anymore PLUS they have game mode. quit wasteing my precious internets.

even if they do Lag its so little its not even human recognizable,** cut this shit off.**

you aint gone ban a fuckin soul, if i made a thread this useless you’d be in my ass. HDTV lag is insignificant as a faction of a mili-second. stop propagandizing another useless issue.

It would need a sticky maybe if it was a valid problem, but its not.

Ive had HDTV’s before they were even a staple in american homes and i can feel input lag anytime…as i know what it feels like from using bad converters on PC’s. on HDTV’s from 07 on, ALL ARE EQUIP’D with devices and modes to ensure that it will NOT happen.

If you feel im just talking shit …visit avsforum.com and see for yourself.

I hope you realize a one-frame lag is already reason for whining, even if it’s not quite human-detectable in practice… And without game mode activated HDTVs lag considerably, period. Even a Sharp Aquos needs Game Mode on (I’ve seen this myself last Sunday at a friend’s house).

[System_1]

->EndlessMike I dont know about that. Maybe Sf4 for Xbox 360 using with VGA cable using the VGA port on an HDTV display would be lag free. But it looks as if Post Processing would cause lag no matter what for any thing else concerning 360 or PS3:

B] Postprocessing: Postprocessing consists of additional features on HDTVs to clean up or “improve” the visual picture quality of images (example: 1080p signal from PS3 to 1080p Samsung HDTV still has lag).

What is wrong with Postprocessing?

The key issue with Postprocessing in consumer-grade displays is that it isn’t optional. Many HDTVs have a “Game Mode” in which the main purpose is to disable both Scaling/Deinterlacing delay and Postprocessing delay. However, even with “Game Mode” enabled, most HDTVs still suffer from lag due to postprocessing that simply can’t be disabled.

[VPT]

Excellent thread, poonage! And thanks *especially *for giving the tip about the guitar games to test lag. I’ll have to rent one the next time I’m at Blockbuster.

Even though you mentioned postprocessing, you should probably add some of the PS3 backward compatibility questions to the FAQ. So when people do a search for the page it becomes more noticeable as a bold question. Just a suggestion.

[EndlessMike]

So if I get the MS VGA Cord and hook it up to my TV I should have no lag?

[System_1]

Yes, if your HDTV doesnt have Post Processing on the VGA port.

From Poonage:

Turns out, many (but not all) HDTVs don’t have postprocessing enabled on the VGA port only.

[AbeFroman]

So if I get the MS VGA Cord and hook it up to my TV I should have no lag?

Every TV is going to have lag. It’s just the way it is…however, if that lag is going to affect gameplay, the answer…most of the time no. If you set up your TV correctly you won’t have any issues.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=558125

It’s best to go through the thread to get more updated info. (OP is from 2005 with updates in 2007)

You don’t need to spend 2300 for an ugly 46 inch set. 1500-1800 will buy a top notch 50-52 inch model that will give you minimum lag (ie: you can’t notice the lag)

[System_1]

Noone said you had to buy an ugly 46".

[EndlessMike]

So is there any real reason why I should do this?

[AbeFroman]

Noone said you had to buy an ugly 46". The point of this thread is to help have no lag so people dont have to deal with it. Once again Abe, you have come to a thread to talk trash?

wtf are you bitching about now?

[VPT]

Hey one more addition to my post above. I hope this doesn’t go against the policy of asking about one’s own HDTV.

I did some research on the TV that I have (a SONY… I know) and found the following keywords: 60Hz, SONY Bravia Engine 2, and 8 ms response time. From that information, can I interpret the milliseconds mentioned here to be the same one’s in the Frame Conversion section of the FAQ? Or do I still need to test it out? BTW, there is a Game Mode with this TV, but there was no specification on how it affects frame response.

[AbeFroman]

Hey one more addition to my post above. I hope this doesn’t go against the policy of asking about one’s own HDTV.

I did some research on the TV that I have (a SONY… I know) and found the following keywords: 60Hz, SONY Bravia Engine 2, and 8 ms response time. From that information, can I interpret the milliseconds mentioned here to be the same one’s in the Frame Conversion section of the FAQ? Or do I still need to test it out? BTW, there is a Game Mode with this TV, but there was no specification on how it affects frame response.

game mod simply speeds up the scaling/processing time. Generally by about 30-50% (depnding on the TV/Brand)

[VPT]

game mod simply speeds up the scaling/processing time. Generally by about 30-50% (depnding on the TV/Brand)

I know what it does. I was mentioning that the addition of a Game Mode to this TV can make the marketed frame response time somewhat ambiguous.

[NeoChaosX]

Hey one more addition to my post above. I hope this doesn’t go against the policy of asking about one’s own HDTV.

I did some research on the TV that I have (a SONY… I know) and found the following keywords: 60Hz, SONY Bravia Engine 2, and 8 ms response time. From that information, can I interpret the milliseconds mentioned here to be the same one’s in the Frame Conversion section of the FAQ? Or do I still need to test it out? BTW, there is a Game Mode with this TV, but there was no specification on how it affects frame response.

To answer your underlined question, no. Response time is how long it takes for a pixel to change color, which is important if you’re worried about image ghosting. It does not correspond to input lag/latency, which is what is covered in the Frame Conversion section.

[poonage]

Hey one more addition to my post above. I hope this doesn’t go against the policy of asking about one’s own HDTV.

I did some research on the TV that I have (a SONY… I know) and found the following keywords: 60Hz, SONY Bravia Engine 2, and 8 ms response time. From that information, can I interpret the milliseconds mentioned here to be the same one’s in the Frame Conversion section of the FAQ? Or do I still need to test it out? BTW, there is a Game Mode with this TV, but there was no specification on how it affects frame response.

This is actually just a misunderstanding. That’s the time it takes an LCD’s pixels to change states, which actually has nothing to do with how much input lag it has. You can read a detailed explanation about Response Time here:

http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/lcd-response-time.html

HDTV manufacturers do not advertise how much input lag their sets have.

[VPT]

Thanks for your responses, **NeoChaosX **and poonage! In addition to the suggestions I posted earlier, maybe you should add the response time misunderstanding to the FAQ as well, lol.

[TS]

Also, as a side note, people need to not post things like “I was able to do X combo reliably in Y game, so the lag is unnoticeable”.

Combos are in your fingers. The lag of your TV does NOT affect your ability to do a combo you already have memorized. What it WILL screw over is your ability to do things like hit confirms or react to certain in-game stimuli like “oh snaps, that’s an overhead!”, because the display is running behind the actual game.

It’s very hard to “feel” the lag in a TV without being attuned to it if the lag isn’t horrible, but it will affect your play.

While this is generally true, I think there are some exceptions- I know for me, there are some combos I do from muscle memory, and some from visual/audio cues. In MvC2 I would probably have a better shot of doing Iron Man/War Machine’s sj.cancel crouching MP infinte setup with lag than the actual infinite. And in some games CCs are the same way- juggling with standing normals into super jump attacks in CvS2, and some A3 stuff I find I do by vision. Though, you may be surprised how quickly you adjust, so it’s really important to be able to test the same thing on a display with no lag.

[VPT]

EDIT: Nevermind.

[skongi]

is game mode supposed to make the picture look like crap?
it sure does on my samsung Samsung LE 37 M 86.

[BeaTs]

I’d say look for a VGA-to-component converter like the Audio Authority 9A60. I got it since my HDTV doesn’t have a VGA port, and it works pretty well. As far as I and others who have used it can tell, it doesn’t seem to add lag to DC games, but don’t hold me to that.

That’s really too bad if your HDTV doesn’t accept the 640x480 resolution via VGA!

You COULD try pairing the VGA box up with an Audio Authority 9A60 which would give you Component output. This would at least get rid of your upscaling lag.

ok…I’ll look into that

I actually got this ‘GIGAWARE’ VGA to Component converter from radioshack, about 100 bucks, and it didn’t work…maybe because it was a cheap gigaware/radioshack brand (if you search for gigaware on radioshack, they literally make everything there…) for some reason, it also had me hook up to the VGA port on my TV anyway (makes no sense…)

maybe there was still lag on the component end? even with game mode it lagged. here’s the link, ahem it’s a PC to TV converter… http://www.radioshack.com/pwr/product-reviews/Computers/Components-parts/Video-capture-cards/Gigaware/p/2756876-Gigaware-reg-PC-to-TV-Converter.html

but maybe your recommendations will be better.