The New Definitive HDTV Lag FAQ

Tech Talk
461

Where you buy the TV has nothing to do with its characteristics, it’s all about the model/brand.

You have to have a Rock Band 2 guitar and the game. The guitar has a small optical sensor in it. You hold the guitar up to the TV and the screen flashes white multiple times.
The game then checks the time difference between when it flashed white on the screen and when the guitar sends a signal to the console saying “hey, I saw the screen flash white”.

  1. The Rock Band test takes measurements and then averages whatever variances it sees. So in theory, you could have a set that fluctuated wildly in lag but gives you a lower number than the worst case. With a CRT test you take individual measurements and it will show high/low numbers for each picture.

  2. It’s not as good as doing the CRT monitor test, but for most people it’s going to be fine. The most important thing to remember is
    A) You should do multiple tests (at least three, but ideally as many as you can stand)
    B) A good set should consistently test well under 16ms of lag (16ms = 1 frame). Anything 6 ms or less is golden, anything close to 16 or higher becomes questionable.

462

Thank you, I really appreciate the response.

I’ll try this out and post what happens.

I’d like to hear what you have to say about your recent purchase after you test it, and the total money you spent on it.

Thanks again.

EDIT: Works perfectly. +rep

463

Thanks!
The important thing to me isn’t getting microsecond perfect measurement, it’s about finding a standard of measurement that:
a) Is accurate enough to make a judgement.
b) Replicates the environment that the games will be played in.

When I refer to b) I mean specifically that RB2 for PS3 is a 720p game. My friend did the CRT lag test with a VGA cable to his Xbox on his high picture quality non TFT screen. The lag test did OK, by memory about 10-15ms. Then I did the Rock Band test at our event on PS3 through HDMI and got 28ms… although he wonders if 16ms response time contributed to the bad result.

Anyway, the point is the RB test is an acceptable standard of measurement if this holds true. Now hopefully I can go out and find some sub 6ms displays. :slight_smile:

464

It isn’t accurate to say Samsung TVs are notorious for lagging, since any LCD, or plasma, or OLED with additional processing will add lag. They all have additional processing, especially as they compete for most features, so they all have input lag. The good thing is that you know how to solve it on a Samsung, but an educated guess is that any set with a VGA input will help you. It just happens that Samsung was smart and allowed disabling of the additional processing on one of the HDMI inputs as well, so you have more options with the newer Samsung models. On Sony XBR6s for instance, the HDMI/PC method does not disable the processing features and you won’t reduce lag comparatively.

As for TOC monitors, it is similar. If you use VGA, it disables the additional processing, but I do not have numbers like those available for the TVs.

  • Pete
465

Has anybody tested this:

I don’t play any of the guitar games, so doing a RB/GH calibration test is kinda out for me.

466

Very helpful thread.

I am curious about one thing though. I understand after reading this thread why HDTV’s have input lag (all of them even the CRT ones) and the solutions to eliminate it.

One thing i don’t get though it’s why most PC LCD monitors have input lag.

First you can easily set your PC monitor to it’s native resolution so you don’t have any input lag due to scaling.

Then there is the post processing that produces input lag though i don’t think most PC LCD monitors have post processing (i am not sure though)

So, what exactly produces input lag on PC monitors?

After some google searching, i found that manufacturers don’t know / don’t want to tell why and no one has a definitive answer to this.

Also these input lag tests on PC monitors (you put the LCD monitor in clone mode with an old good CRT, start a meter and take pictures) i heard that are not really reliable and vary from site to site.

Yes, they are some LCD PC monitors that have zero input lag (or close to zero) like this one here

but again these tests as i said are not truly reliable. For example look here

http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=35&mo1=349&p1=3278&ma2=50&mo2=496&p2=5093&ph=1 (change to Delay compared with a CRT)

and then here

According to the first site the LG L227WT has avg 27 ms input lag, and on the second site the same monitor has zero input lag…

So, to my real question is input lag a problem with the LCD technology, a problem with scaling/post processing, a combination of the two or just manufacturers don’t give a damn about gamers?

467

The whole HDMI/PC thing is only for the A650 series which is the HDTV TOCs. The TOCHD monitors, don’t have an option to switch the label nor does it have a game mode.

468

Right. With the TOC monitors just use VGA, but you probably won’t see the amounts of lag that the newer 120Hz TVs have even if you use HDMI on the monitor. Set it to ‘just scan’ so you have 1:1 mapping and turn off dynamic contrast which just about all the options it has. The monitors do not have the excessive processing, at least not yet. Wait until the 120Hz monitors come out and the TV features trickle down to the smaller sets. I have a 240HD and an a750, and I try my best to reduce lag on both. It was much easier when CRTs were all the rage and you had to do nothing.

  • Pete
469

Thank you very much for the post, that was exactly what I was looking for. I will definitely be checking back here to see your analysis of the HDFury.

470

Any word on how the newer LED TV’s and Monitors perform? Been holding off for a new TV and have about 900 bucks to spare. I know Samsung has a great 24inch LED monitor that has either just released or will be releasing soon. I was hoping that LED technology would improve this but I’m guessing the speed that the light on the screen is switched doesnt matter too much and as usual the extra processing will be holding it back. I use a 27 inch tube tv and a 22 inch CRT monitor for gaming on both console and PC. Ive played on LCDs and something has always felt off, and I finally realized it was the delay after awhile. Sometimes the delay was so bad it could make me sick.

I really am getting antsy to see my games in HD on tv, having no input lag is a big deal to me but playing in standard definitions for some games is even a bigger disadvantage. For sf4 not so much.

471

Anyone try out the new and upcoming XBR9 series from Sony? LCD,plasma,signage… decisions!!!

472

I considered the 32 inch XBR9… but reviews on its backlighting in dark scenes was stated as near-unwatchable. It’s an automatic feature that you can’t even disable on the TV.

Seems overpriced, unless you like the internet connectivity it offers out-of-the-box.

473

I’m almost tempted to just buy a new HDTV for a sole purpose of watching Blu-ray and playing non-fighting games… and continue using a CRT for fighting games.

But I honestly don’t like the thought of having two TV’s sitting next to each other lol. D:

474

That is a different kind of lag. It’s most likely network lag which can be caused by several network problems:

  1. One side of the link is slow, either yours or theirs.
  2. There are too many hops between the two of you, especially if the two players are in to different countries.
  3. Network congestion. Can be local to either party or anywhere in between, for example if you are using something like bittorent which is using up all your bandwith.

thats just off the top of my head. hope it helps.

475

Anyone else on here have a Samsung 4071f?

I took my ps3 over to a friends house to play some SF4 and the game felt a lot different than it does on my TV (moves harder to pull off…).

Wondering if this is just me, or if the set is known to have bad input lag. Took a look around AVS and couldn’t find much. If I do I’ll post a link.

476

so…

477

PS3 doesn’t have an internal scaler. PS3 will only scale at what the game allows it to, which is usually either 720p or 480 CRT standard. The TV does all the scaling.

The 360’s internal scaler is said to typically be better than TVs, and this has been brought up a bunch of times in this and the previous thread, but I haven’t seen any hard evidence.

478

@ TheRazaman, you’re welcome, glad I could help! Here’s the next portion you were waiting for.

I got my HDFury last night and wanted to post up my impressions. Again, my TV is a Polaroid 4034b 40’’ LCD. I was routing from my PS3 to my TV’s VGA port using an HDMI-to-DVI-D cable, to the HDFury. This will display on whatever input your TV uses for VGA, not HDMI, much like the MayFlash.

The very first thing I noticed is, this displays things VIBRANTLY. It looks every bit as good as HDMI. One thing which pleasantly surprised me: It resolved immediately to 1080p, whereas even my standard HDMI cable I was previously using could only resolve to 1080i. HDRemix was in glorious 1080p. When playing SFIV, however, it resolved back to 720p, but that’s not a big deal to me.

Here’s my only complaint with regards to the HDFury: It aligns to the left. In SFIV, a small margin of what’s displayed is off the screen on the left side. There is no corresponding black bar on the right, however. It’s unusual, but it’s not drastic enough to make the game unplayable. If you’re stuck in the left corner and absolutely need to see 100% of your character, it might bug you, but for me it doesn’t seem too bad.

(Just to give you an idea, I had my Ken all the way to the left to see how much was being cut off; you couldn’t see about half of his arm in the corner. It’s not like you can’t see half his body or anything like that.)

HDFury Blue Edition Pros:

  • Looks incredible. Bright whites, vibrant colors, every bit as good as HDMI.
  • Very easy to set up. It’s literally plug-and-play; the PS3 recognizes it as an HDMI cable.
  • Resovles up to 1080p
  • Resolves PS2 games to 1080p when running BC games (tested on Mega Man anniversary collection)
  • Plays Blu-Ray discs and DVDs (HDFury is HDCP compliant)
  • Lag-free

HDFury Blue Edition Cons:

  • Price. I got mine along with the HDMI-to-DVI-D cable for a total of $72 shipped from Monoprice.com. By far the cheapest on the web as far as I know
  • Aligns to the left. This could just be my TV but it’s something anyone who’s considering ordering one should know about
  • Has NO audio output capabilities of its own. THis was not a problem for me as I route a digital audio cable from my PS3 to my receiver

And that’s about it. This is a far higher quality item than the Mayflash, for sure. It has its own issues but if picture quality is a concern and you need lag-free gaming goodness on your HDTV, I can’t recommend anything more than the HDFury. If I find a solution to the left-alignment issue, I’ll post it up here. Again, hope this helps someone!

479

Hey. So I just ordered this hdtv just now: http://www.buy.com/prod/lg-42lgx-42-widescreen-1080p-lcd-hdtv-50-000-1-dynamic-contrast-ratio/q/loc/111/210500708.html?dcaid=15890#moreimg

It’s a LG 42LGX TV. I was looking at the spec’s and it says it has a 2.7 ms. Is that any good? It also has something called Just Scan (1:1 Pixel Matching).

Thanks in advance. ^-^

480

Sure, it’s good… but 2.7ms response time has nothing whatsoever to do with lag, if that’s what you’re asking. Go read the first post, and it will answer anything you’re wondering about.