I hope we can get past this, this thread is getting a bit polluted with bad results.
If you have to do anything other than hold the RB2 guitar in front of your TV (ie, strumming, hitting and buttons, etc etc etc) you’re doing the wrong test.
There shouldn’t be issues with anyone’s competency at the test, because nobody should be doing anything.
You should be able to start the test, leave the room, and come back to see the results.
After reading a bit about lag I began to wonder about my tv set too (pioneer kuro, non-elite). So I went in the tv’s menu and set it to game mode with game prefs turned on. Since I’m going over component and not hdmi, I changed the 360’s output to 720p from 1080i.
Noticed that I was having a bit of an easier time doing combos. It didn’t feel like I was guessing at the timing as much. For instance Sakura’s l.tatsu, s.hp, I could maybe do it sometimes but now I can pull it off the majority of the time. Same with her cr.hp, l.tatsu, lk. (adding the ex tatsu after is another story though, lol!).
I’ll see if I can borrow a copy of RB2 and post some definitive results.
Also just wondering outloud, but any chance that people’s receivers might cause lag too? Maybe if its set to upscale from there?
i just did the rb2 test on my monitor…4ms. :tup:
I went through the trouble to connect my Xbox 360 to my old tube TV again, just to test what you claimed. RB2’s guitar gives me 10ms on the video lag in 480i on an SDTV every time, and my manual tests give me a range between 4-8ms. The game is completely playable if I just set it 0ms (no lag compensation). So no, I don’t agree that RB2’s calibration numbers are off and “-30ms is the zero point” I think such a small margin of error on both mine and the guitars part is more than enough for me to confidently argue that, yes, even in PC mode, the Samsung set lags. Even if “-30ms” really was the ‘zero point’, my consistent results of 60ms would mean the TV lags even worse than I posted.
Additionally, I did set my Xbox’s settings to “expanded”. I noticed more colors, as well as less black crush, but the colors still looked dull and the image was still washed out…very poor black levels, worse contrast, bad colors in general. If I connect it with component cables, even on the default settings, it’s a world of difference. With the settings calibrated, it looks even better. Unfortunately the lag is just too much, and not only did game mode not help at all, it made the image look a lot worse, and every setting is locked.
You can keep thinking it’s lag free all you want, if you don’t notice it’s there and you enjoy it as is that’s fine, it’s your money. Personally, i’m going to return it and spend my money on a TV that features a functional game mode with adjustable settings - i’ve heard good things about Sharp and their AQUOS line.
I know this may be frowned upon, but it’s the only thread I can see around here in relation to HDTV’s. I’m looking for a 26-32 inch LCD TV with good picture quality for watching TV and Movies and great for games like SFIV with very little “input lag”. I’ve been looking at the:
Samsung 450 series
Sony 4000 series
Panasonic LX85 series
All these TV’s come in 26 inch versions as well and it’s the size I’m leaning towards.
What would you suggest? If you have any other suggestions other than the three listed here, please tell me. I have a limited budget so keep that in mind. Thanks 
First of all, no tests said it had 0ms lag. VGA mode has up to 8ms and HDMIPC has up to 15ms or one frame delay. I said this lag was small enough to be totally invisible to players. Or lagless if you will.
And the reason no one uses Rock Band or RB2 or any other game is indeed due to user input but also simply because the game totally sucks at it. In my own experience RB2 will cal at -20ms to 10ms and Guitar Hero 3 will cal at 0ms every single time. Now keep in mind this is the VIDEO lag test not audio. All Samsung TVs lag audio pretty bad. To get rid of that just line out to a receiver of good quality.
RB especially is really bad at lag cal. That’s why people invented the “Black Magic Method” and other guides to a proper set up. You can disagree all you want about it’s tests being off or you can do some research on the net to see that pretty much everyone agrees it is.
The only way to test for input lag is via a PC set up. Period. Tests have been done very thoroughly and extensively by several people and all agree on the results. If you would like to do REAL tests and post results and images in our lag thread at AVS please do. Sitting here debating speeds over a terrible Rock Band lag tool does no one any good.
Well you do have the disadvantage of a matte screen and 10,000 less contrast than 650 owners have when it comes to this. I didn’t say it was as good as a non PC mode image but it is pretty good. At least on the 650 it is. I’m pretty sure a lot of fighters here would take a slightly less vivid image as opposed to it looking amazing and lagging. I have to say though, SF4 looks amazing in PC mode for DAMN sure. Game Mode I am not fond of personally but I don’t have to use it so… Non issue.
And you can keep arguing against myself and all of the extensive tests that have been done to prove my point. (650 tests not 630) It won’t change the results in the least. Proper testing of this TV shows some of if not the best lag times on the market today in the correct modes. It’s not a perfect TV by any means, and I too wish Game Mode was adjustable but I get less lag than game mode with adjusts anyway so it’s all good.
I say go get a Sharp and be happy. I hope you find the right HDTV and love every second of it. All I ask is that you don’t waste my time or others here who are looking for true testing and results.
Absolutely. Always feed an LCD it’s native resolution. Scaling is the enemy when it comes to lag.
From what I read the Kuro has around 35-46ms lag. Here’s a video of a Kuro in PC mode showing this.
[media=youtube]lSW94blyA5Y[/media]
I can’t honestly say I know a lot about the Kuro line but I would assume that PC mode and Game mode would be similar in speed. Maybe not though! Sounds like an AVS question. The Kuro sure looks DAMN good though. Really nice Blu-Ray TV for sure.
You can check RB2 tests for fun but nothing even close to “definitive results” is going to come out of it. :wgrin:
You are totally correct by the way. Some receivers can absolutely create lag in the chain. The only question there is, if the receiver can upscale to the TV’s native resolution it MIGHT do it faster than the TV could. You’d just need to do some research on it to see.
For example, I use a DVDO Edge VP on my old consoles. It upscales them to 1080p/60 at the cost of 6ms. My Samsung TV can then take that image and use it in PC mode since it’s 1080p. If I let the TV do it by it’s self outside of PC and Game mode I’d have 80-100ms lag to pay for it. That’s about 21ms of lag vs 100ms!
So yeah, it can be good or bad to have a receiver in the chain.
Yes and no really. My second TV had a small upper right corner flashlight. (VERY minor compared to the first one) Over the past year though it’s gone away. Maybe from the heat of use or some change in the panel’s position. It did go away though and I’ve heard others with the same results.
Pay attention to what panel type you have though. I have an S panel but I’ve read that lesser panels are out there now. Some of them even have a totally different pixel structure.
I use an LCD monitor that has 16ms of input lag. I never notice it. But if I extend my desktop over to the HDTV, even moving the mouse around feels laggy, and this is in PC mode over HDMI2.
RB’s tool is highly inaccurate, i’ll give you that. But I wasn’t talking about RB, I was talking about RB2. The settings that the automatic calibration provided by the wireless rock band 2 controller (keyword automatic - i don’t know how you still think it’s subject to user input when the controller does everything for you) are consistent within 5ms of my manual attempts every time, and I even went through the trouble of connecting my Xbox to an SDTV to confirm that RB2 does calibrate to 0ms if you are on a lag free display. Also, I am well aware that audio fed through the TV is delayed - if it wasn’t, movies/TV would be unwatchable because the video would be significantly delayed relative to the audio.
I have a low delay LCD to test it with, but I don’t have access to a digital camera. I compared my Samsung LN46A630 to my Samsung 245BW, which has been well documented as having 16ms of input lag. Since LCD monitors don’t conform to TV standards, I configured my drivers to clone mode @ 1920x1080, and set the scaler in the hands of the display so the GPU didn’t have to do any extra work. In this worst case scenario, based on other peoples reports of HDMI2/PC and VGA having 8-16ms of lag, there definitely should’ve been shots with the displays showing the same latency, or even a few shots with the HDTV ahead, since the LCD monitor had to do scaling work to display the image. This was never the case. The LCD monitor was always ahead of the HDTV, and I took at least two dozen pictures. Unfortunately a webcam is hardly useful in determining the exact latency (only the first digit was truly legible) but after combing through them I could definitely determine that, at the very least, the A630 definitely has more than “16ms” of lag. If I had access to a good digital camera, I could provide definitive evidence that the A630 definitely suffers from at least 60ms of delay in PC mode.
The main thing is the colors are dull and the image is washed out. I’ve seen some bad LCD’s but if you play with the settings on most of them, you can at least make it look crisp and clear, even if the blacks are grey and the contrast is poor/etc due to cheap parts/panel. On the A630, in PC mode it literally looks like a thin grey film is coating the entire screen, yet by tinkering with the options available in standard mode, it’s as clear as ever - quite beautiful actually…the best LCD i’ve ever seen, deep blacks, bright whites, great color… PC Mode? It doesn’t even compare to my 4 year old Vizio HDTV in image quality. From my extensive testing, as far as gaming does I am 100% convinced this set is worthless. Best case scenario (VGA@1080p and HDMI2/PC mode @1080p) it still lags way too much to be playable, even for casual use.
It’s been said time and time again that the only difference between an A630 and an A650 set is the finish on the screen. The higher contrast listed for the A650 is only because of it’s glossy finish. Hardware-wise, they are the same. Furthermore, the only other tests i’ve seen for the A6 series were flawed in that it was compared to an equally laggy LCD monitor (which gave a result of 0-8ms), or a test from some guy who was using a 30fps timecode video over S-video, which is hardly optimal.
As far as TV’s go, i’d be happy with a set that had no more than 48ms of lag, and i’d pay good money for one that had an adjustable image with no more than 32ms of lag. This samsung doesn’t fit either criteria.
question.
They say that you can’t notice the difference between 720p and 1080p unless your t.v. is bigger than 50’’.
If that’s true than why do computer monitors have 1920 x 1200 resolutions when they are much smaller than 50’’?
This is a comment made for HDTV when watching movies few meters away from the screen itself.
If you own 32" HDTV and if your couch is 4/5 meters away from it, then for sure you won’t notice the difference whether your TV is 720P or 1080P. Anyway the difference between SD and HD is very well noticeable between SD and 720P, between 720P and 1080P it is slightly better but no that much => so to see it the bigger TV you have, the more you see the difference.
I own a fullHD videoprojector that gives me a 2.5meters image width, even with that size for a display 720P movies are great, 1080P are better yes but it is nothing compared between SD and 720.
Now for a LCD monitor, you usually don’t browse the web or use WORD 5 meters away from the screen, so the bigger the resolution the more information you can get displayed on the screen (multiple window at the same time).
Well, I’ve got a bunch of 42" sets I’m looking up now…here’s hoping at least one of them is adequate lagwise. They’re all right in the same money range, around $800.
OneDeadlyBum,
Instead of going back and forth over other people’s results and out of respect for you own testing I decided to reply with my own testing results this morning. That way we are working with 100% no bullshit real info.
First I had to set up a control.
Since I was going to be using a laptop, I wanted to test it for lag against a CRT monitor. The results were pretty surprising! The Gateway laptop screen was pretty much lag free! Nice! The clear images from the test are below. There were a couple of blurry ones. If I had to guess I’d say they were both about 16ms of lag. Could be anything from background activity to just normal lag spurts all PC’s have.
OK so with that done we learned that the Laptop screen is mostly lag free with a couple of random 16ms hiccups. Now we are free to do testing on the actual Samsung 650.
**But please take note: The only common resolution I could get the laptop to clone image in was 1024x768. (the CRT control test was also in this resolution) That means the Samsung had to use it’s scaling chip to display the image. The absolute worst thing for lag in these models is making it scale the image. That means these results are going to be much worse for lag than using a real 1080p source. From other tests out there scaling the image on the Samsung 650 basically doubles the lag. So when you read these results, keep in mind that for example, an Xbox 360 in 1080p mode is going to have basically half the lag you see below. **
The lag results are as follows:
1: 16ms
2: 16ms
3: 31ms
4: 16ms
5: 31ms
Like the Laptop vs CRT test there were also a couple +16ms jumps for whatever reason pushing it to 31ms as you see below.
So to wrap it all up, from my own testing this morning I found there to be roughly 16-31ms lag in VGA mode when not in native resolution. Based on other results online I would expect a 1080p native signal would produce roughly 8-16ms on the Samsung 650. That’s pretty much in line with the other tests out there I pointed out in my first posts.
I hope I can borrow a tower pc this weekend to do a real 1080p clone test. The Sammy scalar is so shitty it’s not even funny. Cutting it out of these tests would produce night and day differences.
Now, if your results are accurate that means the Samsung 630 has some issue either in hardware or firmware that makes it very different than the 650 when it comes to lag. Or maybe your HDTV in particular is defective in some way. In any event, I hope you get something that can make you happy.
I heard there was a new version of AnyDVD available. Can anyone confirm this?
Who cares? Only people who illegally copy DVDs use that program anyway. Bastards.
I have an 1150 Elite. I borrowed a friends copy of RB2 to the tests today.
This is my setup: 360 w/HDMI set to 720p which is my native resolution, Game Mode, All options turned off, Game Preference Mode turned on
I got practically 0 ms lag times. I did the test over and over again and I never got a lag time of more than 3-4 ms, mostly 0-2.
I then turned Game Preference mode off, and I consistently got a response time of over 20ms.
So from my personal testing, it seems as if the 8G Kuros have pretty much 0 lag.
Very nice work, Cynn. That is the kind of testing we need more of in this thread. Too many people saying " There is no lag in my set because I can’t feel it". Lag perception really depends on the user.
I have a Samsung 2005 DLP. I bought my Xbox360 at the same time all ready to get into next gen gaming. I was totally clueless to all this stuff back then. I had nothing else to compare playing on and I never really noticed the lag. Sure, playing Hyper Fighting seemed a little off but I figured it was me just not used to playing it anymore or the bad 360 pad. It wasn’t until I got my Samsung 650 that I really realized how bad my old DLP lagged. I have run the RB2 tests as well,on the 650, and have gotten similiar results. I think OneDeadlyBum’s issue is with the 630 or his particular set. I certainly wouldn’t be happy with that lag either, so I don’t blame you for returning it. Just know that most other 650 owners do not share your experience.
Cynn: What do you run your xbox on for SF4. !080 or 720? I’m curious if one is better than the other as far as lag goes. Thanks.
…I can’t tell if you were being serious with that answer or not.
Sorry if these are silly questions, noob here:
For Playstation network download PS1 games (e.g. Samurai Spirits, KOF, Tekken2 etc.), are these games supposed to be converted to be playable on HD. I haven’t noticed any lag from PS network PS1 games.
Ok, this one may be silly (or desperate in my case). If I were to use a conventional component cable, set the ps3 to NTSC display only (it will show 480i as the chosen display mode), then supposely I could play all my old ps1/2 titles (on the PS3) with no lag, right? Can I assume no postprocessing by my HDTV with this setup?
Resolution is crap but no lag?