I’m not saying that you’re wrong, but you need to back this up with some empirical evidence. This type of stuff has to be very accurate and down to a few milliseconds. In case you didn’t know, many people are not sensitive to acute input lag (myself included). What appears to be lag-free for you might be troublesome for someone else.
The reason that you should verify this is so people will know for sure before they decide to pursue that particular TV.
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How are LCD *monitors *for lag? I don’t know much about LCD monitors and how they are different from HDTV’s (in a technical sense), so I thought I’d ask. And obviously I would be using VGA or DVI (I have an HDMI-to-DVI converter) cable.
it lags you dont notice it. i would only believe a tv has no lag if i see a test.
lcds lag just like plasmas. it just depends on the model and what it does to see how much it lags.
also i was playing with my TV and i turned off cinemode or w/e and the lag went to mid 20s on lag. once i get the VGA cable i suspect it will be under 1 frame.
Actually, wireless PS3 and 360 controllers don’t lag at all according to Toodles’ research. The response time is identical to a wired controller. So, your 15ms is probably accurate, which is still pretty good.
just looking for a little help guy wanting to upgrade my tv looking for somthing in the 52" range i would really appreciate someone with a knowledge of this crap giving me some advice on brand and model i have wii xbox360 and ps3 will want all 3 in in hd thanks for any and all help guys
I’m not sure. I didn’t get scientific with it. I just read on the Rock Band forum that wireless causes about 10ms and so I changed it to that with my crt, which was fine. I had to change it when I got my Plasma but Toodles may be right. I’d trust his actual research.
This thread was an eye-opener for me. Guitar Hero had always felt funny on my roomie’s HDTV, and it became unplayable at higher levels, and now I know why. I did the lag test, and it scored consistently in the 20-30ms range, which I know isn’t terrible, but it’s definitely not optimal.
I have been playing SF4 on my tube TV, but it looks like shit, so I’d love to get that PS3—>VGA cable and see if that helps.
My question is where can I get this cable? I don’t see how to order on the company’s website, and I see some on eBay but they are $30+. Is that a decent price? I mean I have the cash, but if I can order one from the company’s website for $10 obviously I’d rather do that. Thanks for the help and the information
i’m playing on the 360 right now and the tv is a sony bravia lcd 120hz.
in regular mode (with game mode “off”) the picture quality is awesome. but the problem is some lag here and there, depending on who i’m playing against, but even worse is the input lag! i mean, as a veteran SF player it is totally obvious and very annoying. everything from jump in attacks, wake ups, footsies, and most important… even BLOCKING is thrown off.
what i find rather curious though, is that sometimes it seems that the other player isn’t being affected by the input lag, at least not nearly as much as i am.
anyhow, with game mode “on” the picture is absolutely terrible. it’s like they have to wash the whole picture out or something. the color is bland, picture is dull and dim. and it doesn’t seem to play much better even with game mode enabled.
i’ve heard that it’s because of the HD tv’s and that they need to use special equipment and/or the PC/VGA tv inputs in order to solve this problem.
well i’ve ordered the Xbox 360 VGA cable and i’m waiting for it to arrive. i really hope it does the trick, cuz this damn input delay/lag or whatever, is driving me nuts.
btw, i doesn’t seem to have input delay when i’m playing offline, so it’s definitely something online related.
anyhow, if anyone has any experience with this and/or any advice, i’d appreciate it.
This thread was very helpful so far. I have a 40" Sony Bravia 60hz… and I was able to improve the lag by doing two things: (xbox 360)
Upgrade my HDMI cable to the $50 official Microsoft HDMI cable.
(maybe HDMI cable testing should be part of the FAQ)
Play SFIV in 720p. Not only does it feel more responsive, I get better lag tests in Rock Band 2, and all the text and UI is a little more clear in 720p.
Your problem online is unfortunately just the way that SF4’s netcode was programmed. The game is designed to have input lag online to provide the “illusion” of seamless play. Yeah, it sucks that they didn’t use GGPO.
However, the fact that you’re using one of the 120hz Bravias without VGA means that you are definitely feeling more lag than your opponents are. The XBR6 Bravia was a model I personally owned, and then returned because the lag through HDMI was unacceptably high (even with Game Mode on). IIRC, it was around a 70ms delay with Game Mode off and 35ms with Game Mode on. One frame is about 16 milliseconds, so even with Game Mode on, you are most likely seeing everything 2 frames later than your opponent which is still enough to leave you at a disadvantage.
So in conclusion, SF4’s netcode sucks but you will probably at least be “equal” to your opponent in terms of input delay with the VGA cable.
Upgrading your HDMI cable didn’t help. Trust me! They’re all the same.
Playing SFIV in 720p with the X360 might actually improve your response time, because the game is 720p native so if your X360 is set to output 1080p, you’re forcing the X360 to scale that signal. The X360’s scaler is pretty fast from what I’ve seen, but you will probably be better off setting it to 720p.
Well, I don’t know what to tell you- but I’ve tried several HDMI cables over the year or so that I’ve had the Bravia- and they DO make a difference. Some cables will lag more if I set the black level mode to “expanded” and some will perform just fine with that same setting. I even returned a monster HDMI cable because it caused unbearable lag.
hey, thanks for the info bro. well hopefully when the VGA cable gets here that will make it at least playable for me. funny thing is, when i was playing a couple of the local houston guys online, it didn’t seem too bad. but that was over a week ago.
anyhow, so how do you set the output to 720p? on the xbox360, or on the TV?
The internet echo machine comes to a screeching halt here - a bit of googling shows that nearly everybody is claiming this set to be lag free, without having actually tested it themselves. Those who cared enough to provide evidence all linked to the same forum post. The guy who tested and posted pictures of it was comparing it to an LCD which is known to have almost the same exact amount of lag the A650 does - which would explain why he believed it to be lag free. Do a google search for “dell wfp lag” and you’ll bring up a ton of results showing that nearly every monitor they make has at least 40-60ms of lag.
Calibration in RB2 (tried both automatic and manual calibration) showed that PC mode @ 1080p (whether it was VGA or HDMI was irrelevant) had roughly 60ms of lag. Component in 1080p without game mode produced 100ms of lag, and here’s the kicker - game mode didn’t help at all. Verified by calibrating without game mode, turning it on, and vice versa - didn’t alter my performance at all. This was tested on an LN46A630, but the only difference between an A630 and an A650 is the finish on the screen - the 630 having a semi-matte finish and the A650 having a glossy one.
Furthermore, the image in PC mode is terrible. You can’t adjust the color, it’s stuck on a low setting. Some other critical settings are also disabled, making the image appear lifeless and washed out. It’s a beautiful set for watching movies or TV on after you calibrate it, but if you want to game, you really ought to look elsewhere - especially if you consider 32ms of lag (2 frames) to be unplayable.
Alright, so I researched this issue for weeks before buying a 750 and then ultimately a 650. Do you have any links that do show that when wired up to a CRT the input lag exists?
Both major tests were done on different panels. Both posted the same results.
If you are getting those types of numbers on RB2 testing you have SERIOUS hand/eye issues. My average RB2 calibration is around -18ms or around 12ms as -30ms on RB2 is “Zero”. (I use HDMI as opposed to VGA)
And the image in PC mode is low on color until you turn your Xbox’s mode to “Expanded” and your PS3’s mode to “Full”. Then your color is vibrant and fine.
And Game mode does work, as anyone who owns the TV will tell you. Your set sounds defective. Or it could be the cheaper chipset in the 630 making things worse. Whatever the case is, your problem seems to be yours alone. AVS is stocked full of owners who have been helped by our tests there.
As a side note, I forgot about this thread until today. If anyone needs help with anything 650 just let me know. I recently got a DVDO Edge VP I use on my classic consoles. Very nice device.
I don’t know if you’ll be back to check this thread, Cynn, but did you ever get a 650 without flashlighting/clouding? I’ve went through two 750s and I’m about to exchange my first 650 in for a new one because of flashlighting. I can live with minor clouding but the flashlighting is just ridiculous.
Wouldn’t you want to set the X360 resolution to match the native resolution on the monitor so that the monitor has even less work to do since the bottleneck is the monitor?
