So it confirms what he saw somewhere else with 31ms = 2 frames :).
It’s difficult to have any HDTV below 16 ms from the user testing so far.
Erm, not exactly. I’m the same person he read about in both cases. I’ve been the one seeing 31ms of input lag. I think my testing was flawed or the firmware is to blame. Other people have been seeing 0-1 frames of lag.
I’d just like to say this: if you’re looking for a TV that offers both minimal lag and a spectacular picture, get a 650/750 series Samsung. If you’re gaming, use an Xbox over VGA and call it a day. If you’re doing anything other than gaming, enjoy the ridiculously good picture.
It’s strange when you say “other people have been seeing 0-1 frames of lag”; lag does not count in frame but in msec if you use the “scientific” stopwatch approach. So what you say is that they captured 0 to 16 msec of lag via a camera?
I would agree on the 650 which has been reported as beeing 16-20 msec on avsforum (which is 1 to 1,x frame of lag); BUT you need to use HDMI2 renamed as PC and this turns off most of the image quality settings and the resulting image may not be that great, especially if you use the same input for the TV…
Now for the 750 I’m not sure since it’s different TV generation isn’t it ? I actually thought that Gen7/8/9 had much more lag than the 650.
Do you have any web links to share ? Is the 750 having the same limitation as the 650 to reach a small lag (HDMI2 and very few pictures settings available then) ?
Let me know which TV you were looking at I’ll translate to confirm what you think you saw :wgrin:
This is good to hear, since I have recently been considering a Samsung a550 plasma. I had been all gung-ho on getting a Panasonic until I saw some info about them not accepting 1080p over a VGA input. But as far as I can tell, the Samsungs take care of that nicely. Any one particular thing that makes the 650 better than the 550? I’m trying to shave off the $$$, but if it’s a good enough improvement I may as well up my investment.
Here’s a table with what you’re looking for: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13934044#post13934044
I’d defnitely go with the 650.
looks like it has a quantifiable advantage in just about every category. Couldn’t have asked for a more informative response, thanks!
EDIT: i see that thread seems to be discussing LCD displays, would the same comparisons apply to Samsung’s plasma models?
Ahh, you got me there. The answers you seek are in that forum though.
BustaUppa if you go through this this thread you’ll understand that:
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Input Lag only matters for people playing games where timing matters a lot such as fighting, fps, rockband and so on ; if you play World of Warcarft you don’t need to care for instance
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There is not a single well known HDTV brand (Sony, Samsung, Panasonic) which produces all its TV targetting the lowest input lag possible ; actually it looks like they have yet to acknowledge that there is a market looking for such display …
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Within the same brand, you can’t say TV XXX has a low input lag, so TV YYY has a low input lag as well
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It’s not because it’s more recent that it has a lower input lag => new TV means new video enhancements => more lag unless it is compensated by a truly working game mode
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Plasma and LCD are impacted, however clearly Plasma have had better input lag results before 2008 ; now some LCD seems to be as good maybe some better in particular circumstances.
To show you how much mess there is, the latest Pioneer Plasma generation has been reported with a fairly large input lag => 40 msec or so -
Input lag is not part of any manufacturer’s technical specification sheet
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In order to understand which TV has a low input lag you need to rely on other people testing with a dual screen mode in 1080P to a CRT and the HDTV with a stopwatch that shows precisly how much lag there is or do the test yourself => it’s easy to understand that such setup for this kind of test is not available to everyone
So in the end, as far as your question is concerned, does LCD Samsung applies to Plasma => well there is no way to know; by default NO but it does not mean that it’s not the same / better / worst.
Hopefully in 2009 some websites dedicated to HDTV reviews will systematically test the input lag; for now it’s kind of messy.
You could wait for the new Sharp series that includes VyperDrive… a feature meant to reduce input lag.
I believe the model numbers are LC-32E67U (32") and LC-40E67U (40").
anybody know if there is any video input on the KDL-40S4100 that doesnt have post processing? i tested last time with it on a HDMI but i played sf4 today and noticed lag… im going to need to get rb2 to test each port i guess.
I got my hands on one of the new RB2 guitars, and I decided to test my set.
HDTV: Vizio VX32L
Console: Xbox 360
Input: VGA, set to 1366x768 (The native resolution)
All filters and image enhancements OFF (note: The game mode present in this set does not affect the latency at all. You can’t even use it over VGA anyways, non-issue)
Latency: 20ms
Based on play testing, the scaler in this set is mediocre. 480p content (wii/gamecube/some ps2 games) were laggy enough to be perceivable without external hardware or testing. I can only imagine that 480i content would be worse.
To sum it up, if you can play at the native resolution over the VGA port, this set performs well enough to play time-sensitive games on. I would pass if you wanted to play anything else, however.
I’m interested in seeing some reports on the KDLxxWL140 (xx representing physical size. Most commonly referred to as the WL140 series) I am considering buying a new TV, and these look better than anything else in town. If it’s within 10ms of my current set, i’ll probably bite the bullet.
thanx theirlaw for your responses to me. I may end up holding out on the sharp or getting the set that the OP got. Ill keep you guys posted on what i get…
I had a KDL40WL140 from costco, and i ended up returning the set. The bravia engine distorts the picture by softening the image, and no adjusting of the sharpness helps.
anyways, i dont have the pictures with me, but i did an input lag test with a crt monitor and i found the best response times i got were 29 ms on the vga. hdmi ports were ~45 ms.
also, the hdmi2 thing im pretty sure is unique to only samsung sets.
Picked up my Xbox last night. Tested it out with HDMI/Game, HDMI2/PC and VGA.
All I can say is on HDMI/Game, if you set the reference level to “Expanded” and the black level on the TV to “High”, the picture you get is nothing short of jaw dropping on the LNXXA750. I didn’t notice any input lag, but I wasn’t playing any games; just fiddling around with the menus.
HDMI2/PC, the picture quality definitely suffers, but it softens up the picture and makes it easier to look at. Some people might not like it. Personally, I’m indifferent. No lag was detectable at all.
VGA is the money maker. Image looks better than HDMI2/PC. Absolutely no lag. Pretty sure this is how I’ll spend my hours and hours playing SF4.
Input Lag and features BESIDES Game Mode…
I AM NOT ASKING IF MY TV LAGS! I am asking for clarification about my TV’s settings! This is some highly technical stuff (which is why I’m asking it) and I don’t blame anybody for not knowing all of it (except for maybe fubarduck lol j/k). But seriously, any help at all would be appreciated!
For some background knowledge, I have a SONY KDL-46V4100 connected to a PS3 via a 16’ HDMI cable. An important thing to note is that my PS3 and TV are not directly connected. I have an HDMI wall-outlet behind my TV and another near my entertainment stand/rack. So the 16’ HDMI cable goes to from the PS3 to a wall-outlet, and a second 6" HDMI wire goes from the TV to the HDMI wall-outlet behind it. In other words, there is an HDMI cable behind my wall that is connected via two wall-outlets, making for a total of *three *HDMI cables stretching over 30’ that are connecting the PS3 to the TV.
What I want to know is:
[LIST=1][]What else can I configure in the Picture, HDMI, or External Settings that will reduce input lag? (I did the Guitar Hero calibration test and am getting anywhere from 30ms to 70ms of lag with Game Mode on) I tried to mess around with the options outside of Game Mode, but I have no idea what they do (see below).
[]Do connection type (HDMI, Component, etc.) or cable length have any affect?
[*]Does the option selected in the External Settings have any effect? Or is just there as a title (BD, PC, Game, DVD, Cable Box, etc.)?
[/LIST]
Picture Settings:
CineMotion: Automatically detects film-based content and applies an inverse 3-2 pull-down process and a motion estimation engine to improve film content and de-interlacing performance.
[list]
[]Auto 1: Applies and inverse 3-2 pull-down process along with motion estimation to obtain the smoothest picture quality and reduces artifacts of moving images. Select for standard use.
[]Auto 2: Applies only the 3-2 pull-down process. Picture movement will be similar to the original film.
[]Off: Turns off CineMotion.[/list]
Video/Photo Optimizer: Set the picture settings to optimize the image quality of video (moving pictures) or photo (still image) content. Feature is only available for 1080i/p (excluding 1080/24p) content connected to the Component or HDMI.
[list]
[]Video-A: The TV will automatically set the picture settings for video or still image content when SONY optional equipment that supports Video-A mode is connected to the HDMI input.
[]Video: Select to set the picture settings for video.
[]Photo: Select to set the picture settings for photo.[/list]
EDIT: One more thing. Is it absolutely necessary to have the Rock Band instruments to do the “hands free” input lag test? I want to just rent the stand-alone disc without buying the game.
can somebody explain the duel monitor test. i dont fully understand it. like i know i have to hook up the Tv/monitor threw the same source then run a timer on it( http://tft.vanity.dk/inputlag.html ) but then what. do you take a picture? if you have to take a picture what do you do with the times you get.
also i want to use a laptop to do this. would that work? its the easiest way i can think of doing this because it auto mirrors when you hook another monitor up to it.
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your monitor is supposed to be lag free, ideally a CRT screen, or you need to know how much it lags (if it lags you need to add this value to the final value for your HDTV)
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both screens will run in the same resolution via the dual screen and you want to test 1080P, so both screens needs to be 1080P capable
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if you are going to use HDMI on your TV while playing then hook up the HDMI port for your test not VGA
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take a dozen of picture of both screens displaying the timewatch
Now for each pics identify how much difference there is between each screen in msec, the TV should be behind your monitor obviously otherwise your monitor lags more than your TV ; and finally do the average
=> and here you you have you average input lag
Simple :looney:
EDIT: I forgot but you also need to have a quick camera that can take picture in a 1/1000sec ideally (or at least faster than 1 frame = 16msec), otherwise if it takes the light for like 30msec then there is not way to identify the numbers on the screen and it will captures many numbers for the same digit (I have had this problem…)
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I don’t know about the best PS3 settings but on page 6 someone tested a W4100 (not a V4100) and found 65msec of lag even with game mode ON via HDMI. However VGA was faster.
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For the HDMI cable length you should not go above what the HDMI standards defines (which I don’t know :)), but as long as you get a picture without any macro blocks then you are fine => there can’t be any lag on the cable itself unless you use some kind of HDMI repeater in between that no one knows how much it lags.
If you read this thread it’s pretty clear that HDMI / Component / VGA connection will result in different input lag ; but this is related to the TV not your source, it’s not possible to guarantee anything. If your TV game is good it should provide the same result in HDMI game mode than VGA, still apparently many TV sets are faster on VGA.
- The only option that should make a difference it the output resolution 1080 / 720 / 480 etc… Maybe your TV upscales fatser than your PS3 (not likely) but you might give a try by settings your output to 720P and see what the result is (most games are native 720P not 1080.
For rock band and the automated test you need the guitar as well, as per a feedback received in this thread.
my computer only outputs 1280x1024… i need to see if it will be scaled on a vga port… i might just go and buy a fucking new TV cuz of the lag 
Wow! Thanks for that. It really REALLY helped a lot. A couple of follow-ups:
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I think that the V4100 and W4100 are related in some way. This is because my instruction manual often mentions things like “this feature is only available in the W4100.” Even if that proves that I have lag, at least I know for sure rather than being in the dark.
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I don’t know for sure, but maybe I do have HDMI “repeaters” in use. I mean *technically *I have three HDMI cables all connected together. I just don’t know what’s behind the wall.
And I was also thinking the same thing about trying a VGA or Component cable. Unfortunately my wall-outlet only has HDMI and Component so it’ll have to be Component. But the problem is that my family uses the PS3 for Blu-Ray and I would have to constantly cycle between Component and HDMI in between games and movies (even though both wires can be hooked up at the same time). But I haven’t ruled this option out yet.
- As for my TV, it seems to automatically adjust to 1080p or 720p. When I’m at the PS3 XMB, my TV’s ‘Display’ button shows me that it’s at 1080p. But when I start a game like SFIV, it shows 720p.
I guess I’ll have to trust my inputs with Guitar Hero rather than the Rock Band feature. :sad:
Man I wish that I had some clarification about those other features. I guess I’ll have to call up SONY tech support and hope that somebody knows what it is.
Thanks again!