Nah. Humor me guys. Trying to have intelligent discussion here. This ain’t got shit to do with me as a player. This is me comparing them as characters in the match-up.
Answer me this.
What gameplay advantages does Sagat have in this match?
FROM C2Q POST’S:
How do you deal with rose’s pokes? I met a guy who raped me completely today all because i was pretty much stuck either blocking or eating his combos because i couldn’t counter hit a damn thing he did. It was the jabs, sliding kicks and the turning dash looking special she has. This was honestly one of the harder matchups i found online before i gave up 20 rounds later.
I kept trying to figure out what to do, but this guy would backdash out of all my crossups reflect most of my fireballs and pressure me the entire match.
I suck, so help plz.
And by me:
How to deal with Wake-up backdashes from rose when going into vortex ?
-dmg-akuma has 850 life a f-HK catching a demon flip into ultra takes 70% on akuma. Sagat can also mid screen zone the fuck out of akuma and hit sMP prevents all cross-ups. Sagat is quite possibly the best defensive charater in the game and tack on his health/stun he can take alot.
-He can punish all teleports on reaction with kara knee
-jump back HK beasts everything
-sMK not only hits twice but stuffs akuma’s sHK
-You are a bitchy sagat which is funny because you use the most abusive character in the game.
-You clearly haven’t watched high lvl akuma v sagat play or you would know it’s definitely not 7-3 its just that akuma is 7-3 against you not sagat hahahaha (also watch high lvl sagat vs gief gief looses most of the time check out the zangitan challenges…one of the best giefs getting beat by a not so best in Japan sagat (not saying he’s not great or anything just not comparibly great with his character to other people)
-You have a hit confirm that does 60% against akuma
-kara ex tiger uppercut not only goes through ex air fb but since it anti-airs it is extremly easy to combo into ultra…1 bar->fucking ultra confirm…stupid
-If the akuma fucks up any of his safe dive kick setups on sagat by just a little sagat gets free trade dP->f+HK->ultra/ex TS…stupid
-Akuma actually takes an assload of work and the ability to combo and do repeated 1 frame links to be really effective against sagat.
-You clearly are just awful at this match-up and clearly need to work on it.
-I suck at the blanka match-up but I don’t say blanka is 7-3 against akuma I just say blanka is cheese.
-akuma has to play near perfect against sagat whereas sagat can take quite a few combos and still clutch that shit out…akuma takes 2 combos or 1 and some counter pokes and it’s lights out.
-Stop complaining you use the character with the best match-ups in the game.
Sagat can’t punish all teles on reaction with Kara knee. It must be ex knee. But I’ll test it to be sure.
Sagat’s health advantage is mitigated by the roundhouse loop. Normally Sagat’s health would be a huge bonus but in this match it doesn’t mean much. A mistake on Sagat’s part means he takes huge damage whether Gouki has meter or not.
You are incorrect about Sagat’s stand mk. It only hits twice up close. It can stuff his roundhouse from far away but risk vs reward favors Gouki and will not deter him form using it.
I watch plenty of high level Sagat vs Gouki. You know how gouki loses? Sagat gets lucky or he just fucks up. Gouki win’s by outclassing Sagat or doing things Sagat has a hard time defending against. Ambiguous tatsu, demon flip OS’s, Tatsu sweep, roundhouse and it’s loops. Stuff like that.
Most of the stuff you said confirms this. Sagat gets trade blah blah or Gouki misses spacing on blah blah. Gouki needs to mess up. Both chars need to play really well with minimal errors, but the key thing is this. For Sagat to win he must take a risk. Gouki doesn’t need to risk anything really.
Also stop jumping to conclusions. Did I say Gouki is BS? Did I say it was unfair? Did I say I hate Gouki? Nope. I stated my thoughts on a match-up. Don’t call me bitchty or w/e. Be mature and actually have an intelligent conversation with me. No flaming is necessary. You embarrass your fellow Gouki mains by acting childish.
I didn’t come in here disrespecting anyone or Gouki as a character. Show me some respect the same way I showed you guys respect with how I posted.
^while the round house loop isnt easy, nothing worth the risk is in this game honeslty. something as easy as a bnb combo does actually take practice and its a staple with a certain character. while we have a round house loop, its really not something we can abuse. there are certain advantages that akuma has that sagat doesnt, and some that sagat has that akuma doesnt.
ultra set ups for sagat.
high damage ultra for akuma.
safe tiger knee loops for sagat.
round house loops for akuma.
etc, etc.
what im saying is this match up is a 5/5 but akuma does honestly have a slight advantage in there, but thats with picture perfect play. so to end both of u are right but in certain aspects ur both wrong.
Let’s clarify. I hope no one is even ENTERTAINING the thought this was even right? Gouki definitely has advantage. What we are debating is how much of an advantage.
You guys aren’t mentioning the demon flip set-ups that Gouki has. Sagat has an extremely hard time with them because his hitbox is so damn big.
I think it’s really hard for a player who uses the most absurd character in the game and complains about matchup to get any respect.
Seriously.
Ppl gonna mock
Where am I complaining about a match?
Also if Sagat is the most absurb who sits right after him? Trust me when I say you guys ain’t exactly sitting on a weak character. So I dunno what kind of high ground think you are standing on when you make comments like that.
It looks like he’s trying this thing called character discussion. Maybe you people might have heard of it.
lol, you serious? Every time you attempt some vortex shit there is a RISK that sagat will get an auto correct TU or simply that he’ll guess right and throw out a TU and bam, it’s 60%+ of you’re health gone.
How can you say akuma doesn’t have to take any risks?? Even throwing out a standing rh is somewhat risky, the sagat player can just randomly throw out a random safe lk TK (at akuma’s s.rh distance) and do some good damage plus push akuma back at a safe distance.
I mean, the risk vs reward ratio is terribly in sagat’s favour.
I can accept that it’s a 6-4 matchup (might as well be 5-5 but anyways) but no way it’s 7-3
I agree with you, it’s rough for Sagat. Just keep in mind that you always have the risk to reward advantage due to your health. Playing a smart, albeit defensive Sagat will do just fine.
Basic zoning, with uppercuts at all openings is a must. As soon as you have the lead you take away one factor that allows Akuma the advantage: Forcing you to him.
That one uppercut might be all it takes. From here on out you just hang onto that lead and make Akuma come to you.
As long as you’re paying attention you can uppercut these just fine, especially the reset ones. The things to look out for are the short or far flips as bait. but you really should shut this small option down as Sagat.
Strike at the space between, not at akuma and I think you’ll find good results.
Sagat has some very good normals to fight akuma with, where again the risk/reward is in your favor…just play around with them.
I’m sure it’s nothing you haven’t heard before, but combine simplifying the game down to the basics that reward the shotos so much in this game with the finer details that Bokkin mentioned and I think we have a fairly even matchup.
5.5 - 4.5 or 6 - 4 Akuma, imo
–±-=_…
…or until you learn it. $0.02
And please pardon any and all who answer, arguably myself included, there’s a reason people stop wanting to help this particular neck of the woods…tools are much sharper in other sheds.
Sagat actually has a tough time getting auto correct TU’s. He isn’t Ryu. He goes forward when he TU’s so I think that has something to do with it.
I think the riskiness of rh is mitigated by Sagat’s huge hitbox. It hits from pretty far away especially when Sagat is crouching.
I see your points duggish. What specific things does Sagat need to pay attention to, to know when to TU or respond correctly to a demon flip mix-up? I mean this stuff can get really tricky. It seems he has a million little things he can pull out to make things tough.
I was going to say…
That’s the trick, at least when first learning to fight vs. Akuma. For example, after a forward throw Akuma’s like to dash forward twice into a demon flip. This stuffs or evades reversal Uppercuts. Lp shoryu fadc shaku, walk forward into hk demon flip palm can be timed so that it passes by reversals as well. (just examples)
These sort of traps will get you to sit tight, for fear of whiffing an uppercut. at which point, akuma switches to MK flip to land in front for a combo, or spacing or a crossup tatsu…etc.
So it’s all kind of a trick. Akuma is all about weighing his odds in different scenarios, and by observing the opponents habits and making the correct choice; one can run with the momentum and keep it going till KO.
But in the end it’s all gambling. And while it’s not as bad as say fuerte’s odds, losing 1 or 2 gambles could potentially mean the round.
+++++
For the demon flips, just be watching akuma and if you see a resetXXflip or just an empty flip, then just have that trigger finger ready. you have to watch the trajectory to know whether or not it’s safe, but knowing these things mostly comes with practice.
++++
Honestly, the best way to handle Akuma’s absurd amount of mix up and options is to learn them yourself. Then you can mixup the various defensive actions in order to fight it. It’s at this point that the risk > reward aspect comes into play and the match doesn’t just landslide to Akuma
Back to work… -.-
Yeah but we aren’t going into other character forums and bitching about absurd match-up theories…
Demon flip kick setups are extremely situational…HK loop is so tough even pro japs screw it up sometimes…if akuma fucks up just minorly once it leads to 50% dmg usually or more…sagat has great defense to prevent vortex/loop setups…ur probably getting styled on by an akuma and r mad. Akuma is extremly difficult to learn and of 2 people of equal skill sagat akuma is 5-5 because akuma not only has to play near perfect and have 1 frame repetative links down but also has to have his wake up game and spacing near perfect too. Akuma just has to be plain better than the sagat which is usually the case since sagats are usually shit and thats why they don’t win tourneys because they coast through and then get styled on by another character that the person has the appetite and has put so much more work in. Sagat is easy mode and thats why he’s my second…dudes combos and setups and just ease of winning is crazy easier than akuma…u try to pick up akuma and I’ll show u how sagat can beat him. All that being said I still enjoy the sagat match-up because most sagats don’t know it and always try to reversal dP which gives me good loop practice and style points. How about you focus on you and not the character because that s what it boils down to. For Yoshwo and DaggerG Guile v Sagat is 7-3 guile at least according to Dagger…believe in what u are capable of not what your character is.
YOU’RE FUCKING sMK BEATS AKUMA’S HK U SHOULD KNOW THIS STOP BITCHING ABOUT IT WHEN U CAN OUT POKE IT!
edit: Whoever gave me bad rep on pointing out Sagat’s advatages seriously dude?..wow ur cool…at least I know my match-ups so I’d say ur the fucktard and I’m pretty sure I’d style on u for free. Internet premium insecure idiots are free all day. (You can sorta tell from the previous page who did it and ur a douche) I’m still beating vega in a beauty contest motherfucker!
edit again: whoever negged me again how about you man up and identify yourself instead of pussin out behind a computer…
Relax. Breathe in, breathe out. Repeat.
i did…this sagat shit got me riled up. im good now…just the are alot of dull tools out there too and it gets annoying when they don’t try and sharpen themselves.
edit… was thinking what if it does turn out that akuma has a 7-3 advantage on sagat…who the fuck cares someone needs to be able beat his ass…it’s not like sagat having a bad match-up is a bad thing.
My fuerte has a 7-3 matchup against any akuma player not named hsien or ma…;p jk’s
Bokkin this match isn’t 5/5. Not even Mago himself thinks that.
Gouki certainly has advantage.
He simply has the tools over Sagat in this one match. Sagat is better OVERALL. But in this particular match Gouki is on top.
For the record, I only lose to one Gouki and That’s Shinakuma204 who is probably the best Gouki in Canada and easily the best one on PSN. I style on all other Gouki’s I have faced including in tourney.
I’m not judging this match based on that. I’m just looking at their tools.
Stop acting childish though. Shit is getting old. And stop trying to make this about me. It isn’t. I’m talking about the characters. Let’s stay focused on that shall we? Just the match-up. Not who is easy mode and not all your hidden Sagat hate that you obviously have in abundance. I don’t give a damn about it and neither does anyone else. Sorry so many Sagat scrubs piss you off. I’m not one of them. Keep it civil. thnx.
well… I think the problem here (although the response was in no way really appropriate and I’m sorry for that) is that you came in and instead of posing a akuma v sagat question you posted a tier listing question. Tier listing questions are not for a useful helpful threads. They are for arguing for the sake of arguing threads. IMO tiers don’t mean that much except for the lower class of players or when trying to quickly find someone to counter a certain character (I don’t do it but I won’t knock others if they feel the need).
Post question about the match-up instead… be respectful about the question as WELL as humble. Starting out by saying “how the hell is only 6/4!! Akuma v Sagat is the easy button!” really isn’t going to make a lot of ppl happy… especially considering its sagat being referred to.
As for the actual match-up…
I’m a nice guy and so instead of just mocking you… Crouch. Do your uppercut from a crouch and you won’t be hit as often and your uppercut will hit clean EVERY time if you time it right. Thats for NON wake-up. On wake-up its a lot harder… but It gets a LOT easier if you use EX TU instead. Usually his issue with the cross tatsu is that his uppercut takes longer to come out (5 frames if I remember right?) so you get hit in start-up frames. So try EX auto-correct on wake-up. It can help. And most don’t even time their cross-tatsu’s correct AT ALL making it even easier to get.
As for reset demon flips. Its a a or b guessing game. Either you uppercut and they are in trouble or you uppercut and they aren’t. And its 50/50 for the way they go. So you have to actually READ the opponent… something sagat many times doesn’t have to do since he isn’t much of a mix-up character so it might be new to some sagats. On resets I really believe its about even on advantage… which is why you don’t see jap players use akuma’s resets often.
On the other hand his demon flip/cross tatsu option on wake-up is where the advantage in the match-up comes. Not off pokes (they are different and akuma have better anti-sagat pokes but sagat has much better air pokes and anti-air pokes) and certainly not off damage (with 2 meters off a standard c.mk poke sagat does over 40% damage WITHOUT ultra while akuma’s loop does about 36% if it was a deep hit… which isn’t what usually lands in the match-up) and not off safety (safe tk strings net easy free chip while akuma doesn’t really have any easy safe way of chipping like that… even FB to finish can be focused through or at times can be uppercut through or ultra’ed through.
as for fb wars neither of you are going to really be netting anything either way. Only real thing is it decides who gets annoyed first or if the akuma tried for a ex demon flip before the sagat decides to hop a fireball to get closer. No advantage either way.
as for hk spam on block… try using a lk tiger knee if it wasn’t a deep hit. You’ll either trade (neither falling), hit, or on block it should be a safe 1 hit knee leading to some sagat rushdown chance. Another good option is simply jump backwards after a blocked hk. Even if the person was expecting it and tries to demon you should be able to land a hit on him. Too many sagats just let hk spam lock them down when on block its EVEN… nothing even CLOSE to a lockdown.
There isn’t an all answer to the wake-up options or “vortex.” Thats why its good. But a simple correct guess will let you either have done a ton of damage or gone back to the “normal” portion of the match.
as for dealing with the teleport. EX low shot deals with that easily enough on reaction and you can ultra on reaction if they are in the corner and teleport. Akuma is in trouble in general with sagat once he is in the corner and you are pressuring him with safe tiger knees.
learning to late crouching TU will help a LOT on non-wake up related mix-up. And EVERY time you see a jump in you can simply use mp or hk in the air and beat anything he does if its NOT wake-up related. And dont’ throw out fireballs as much as you normally would. Akuma can punish you for it unlike most. Another change to the usual sagat format of throwing them out as much as possible to gain meter. But thats not to say to never use them of course.
The large hitbox doesn’t make THAT much of a difference compared to other match-ups honestly. you usually only get about two loop rounds most times which means akuma only did 315 damage… and he does that kind of damage easily enough off any character… not just sagat. 269 damage off a perfectly spaced c.lk started loop isn’t that much better than 245 that can be done without the loop but using cl.hp (both using trip for a knockdown at the end of course).
For hitbox the only character you really should be annoyed about is ryu since tatsu trip doesn’t even work on him. But then again… AKUMA should be pissed about that. ITs a fluke that shit doesn’t work not the other way around.
as for risk… there is a risk of a TU on ANYTHING he does on the ground. The same can’t be said in reverse because tip hits with HP end up getting akuma punished HARD. There is always a risk for both players… its not something only sagat has in the match-up.
one last thing… akuma has to always worry about spacing as to know how long to loop, when to loop at all, when an FADC will be worth while, etc. Sagat gets a punish if akuma doesn’t do this right. And when it comes to punishing sagat’s health gives him a HUGE HUGE advantage.
in short… if there wasn’t the huge health disparity then it would be easily in akuma’s favor due simply to the fact that on wake-up the mix-up options are so heavily in akuma’s favor. But the health difference makes the match about 5.5-4.5 in akuma’s favor in relative “top players” hands that both know the match. For your average akuma/sagat scrub that know the basics of the vortex and who to use each character it might be more in akuma’s favor because they haven’t had to practice their option on the ground in the manner that must be done against akuma (and for ryu/ken even to a much lesser extent).
But plz try not to spam tier related comments in this thread. Or commenting back at someone unless their is actuall substance related to the thread in the response. If you have an actual question about the match-up then cool… ask them. But otherwise keep the comments to the sagat forum where they belong if they are sagat related. cheers