The Makoto Match Critique Thread!

Update: This is now The Makoto Match Critique Thread! I noticed some time ago that we didn’t have an official one here, but didn’t know if I should take it upon myself to make one or not.
However, after Elton mentioned it again, I’m just gonna go for it!

The idea is pretty simple: Post your matches, ask for some help, provide help for others, etc. It’s all pretty self-explanatory xD

One thing I ask is that you don’t flood the thread with like 10 matches per post or something O_o Other people might need some help too, so I’d like to avoid having this great wall of insert your name here going on. If you have multiple videos to post, try out the Spoiler feature to collapse
them please! Let’s try to avoid clutter as much as possible!

Well, that’s enough out of me! Post your fights, and let’s get to it!

I haven’t been able to play much due to school, but I need to get some practice in! If you wanna spar with me, please feel free to add me up on PSN! I have a lot to learn, and any help or training partners are welcome!

PSN: LadyBridget

Only watched the first vid. First thing I notice is lack of any meter building normals and constant jump ins. You also sit on full meter the entire time, despite hitting various hayates. An ex hayate would have knocked down chun for some mixups and gave you a huge advantage and used the full 2 bars of meter you were sitting on by the end of the 2nd round. one spot in particular that it was painful to see was the 2 ex spinning bird kicks in a row from chun you blocked and punished with hayates but never ex for knockdown. Maybe even a SA,b ut not sure on the recovery time/ability to punish. Dont see too many throwing out random ex spinning birds. You also score a throw knockdown near the end and backdash away from chun and let her get up for some reason. an ex oroshi or another throw or crossup or something is the bnb of Makoto. Letting them back up was a mistake.

Id work on meter management. Both in building and using it. Ex moves are huge for Makoto whether its for the knockdown of a hayate counter/punish/bnb combo or for mixup potential with overheads from oroshi. Work on throwing out normals for building meter and using it for ex to score knockdowns and then capitilize on those knockdowns instead of backing away. Makoto needs to get in and keep pressure on, not let them back up. Practice meaty oroshi as they are rising so it hits as they stand. You can condition them to block low with c.lk or c.mk type moves on wake up or have them fearing a karakusa and stomp their attempts to get away with the overhead.

In general, normals are the bulk of damage in non-pro play regardless of what people might tell you. Someone jumps in, you can do a cr.mk for lower hitbox and likely stop it straight up. They want to just run in with no real parry ability and you can get in a poke war and win with many of Makotos normals. Work on comboing everything to hayate and ex hayate with meter and dash in on top of them to see some major gains in damage and match control.

Thank you very much for taking the time to write up all of this for me to build on! I sincerely appreciate it, and every bit of this information is very helpful; I will read it repeatedly until I can solidify the adjustments I need to make!

I began to notice my habit of sitting on full meter as well after just a few matches, but couldn’t really think of a good way to use it. I didn’t see many opportunities to throw out SAII without getting punished, so I just stayed away from it. I only used it to get out of the corner when I was in a tough spot. After a few matches, I started trying to mix in IA EX Tsurugi to try getting an overhead, but I had very limited success with that. As for all my jump-ins, I saw that I could get away with it, so I kind of abused it, I guess. I was expecting to be parried or anti aired, but it didn’t really happen, so I just kept at it. I might need a stronger opponent to force me out of that mindset soon.

I can’t really make any excuses for my lack of knockdowns and mix-ups, unfortunately. I’m so paranoid about eating reversals that I just back off. Sometimes I go in for a mix-up, but I end up getting parried, thrown, or eating a reversal, so it just kinda forced me into this “back off” mindset. I catch myself backdashing almost every time I get a knockdown, and I need to snap out of it. Other times, I dash in, but then I get cold feet and just hold down+back until they get up or I backdash out at the last second, trying to bait a reversal :confused:

I understand what you mean about meter management, for sure. I’ll start looking into what normals build meter most effectively so I can start using my EX moves more frequently instead of letting my meter go to waste by sitting on it the entire match. Up until now, I’ve mostly used it as a cushion so I can SAII my way out of the corner or just hope that the opponent becomes paranoid due to me having full meter, forcing them to make mistakes.

Thank you again for taking the time to give me some advice. I really do appreciate all that you’ve said, and I’ll get started right away! I’ll start looking for more knockdowns using my meter, as well as throwing out normals to help build it. I’ll try to stop being so paranoid about reversals and just try to condition opponents into blocking low like you said so I can try getting another knockdown with EX Oroshi. I will also start trying to practice crossups as well, since I have never really tried them before. I’ll try to work all of this into my next upload so that hopefully, some improvements will be evident. Thank you!

Immediately after writing the above post, I jumped into another ranked match. I was pit against Yun, which really excited me since I haven’t fought a Yun yet, and it was a really fun fight. I tried using my EX Hayate more, but only got 1 or 2 knockdowns off it, and wasn’t able to mix-up after. Afterall, this is only the first match I tried making adjustments on xD I also stopped jumping in so much, relying more on Makoto’s dash than anything else. I think I only jumped in once or twice throughout the entire match, and it was for a crossup. I even managed to land an SAII>sjc>Tsurugi>Hayate to finish off round 3. Even though the adjustments I made felt somewhat minor, I did manage to pull off a win, despite how nervous this Yun made me xD I’ll keep on working on those mix-ups and the meter management. I think I’m already seeing a bit of progress, and I’m really happy with it ^^ Big thank you to KirbyMorph!

I have the upload on my Youtube channel, but I think this one shows a little more progress since I managed to lock Yun down in the corner with EX Oroshi and EX Tsurugi:

[media=youtube]3wQLKU6yh3U[/media]

In this match, I starting trying to mix in some throws to my post-knockdowns, and even got a Karakusa in there, though I dropped the combo after it xD I really need to work on that.

[media=youtube]6DnEsJFjXnk[/media]

Since there is no official critique-thread here on the Makoto-boards(as far as I know of anyway), I was wondering if I could borrow this thread and post some videos of my own. Are you alright with that Bridget?
Also, I’m wondering what type of replays is best for criticism; Replays of me being totally stomped, or videos of me playing someone close to my own skill-level? Maybe something in between?

I was actually thinking of that too. I started to wonder if I should just make this a general match criticism thread for everyone to use so that we don’t have like 50 different ones for separate players O_o so please, feel free to post your stuff up here and I’ll update the title and description of the thread!

I haven’t been able to play much since school picked up again, so I need to get back into this too. As for what kind of replays, I can’t really recommend what you put up, to be honest. I’m new myself, so I don’t really have any right to recommend what anyone else does xD

What I was thinking of doing was updating every week with 2 to 3 matches where I fight someone with about equal skill level. Getting stomped on is good for learning because there’s so many things that obviously need improvement, and it would be great to have all those things pointed out to you, but at the same time, there might be TOO MANY things, and people might not want to go through all that stuff. So, maybe matches where you fight someone with about equal skill will be better, and maybe ask more specific questions like, “Any advice on how to beat _____ or how to punish ______?” If you just put up a video where you’re getting curbstomped, people won’t really know where to begin O_O So, personally, I try to put up at least half-decent matches so I don’t drive people nuts if they want to help, lol. But, like I said, it’s entirely up to you. There’s some really cool, generous people in the community that are willing to help out and put in all that time to explain things, but I think equal-skill matches might be best for now!

Alright, here is a match i just played.

I got a pretty decent rushdown going in the second round, and in the third round i did a parry i was pretty proud of, even though i didn’t follow it up.
There is a bunch of things I know I need to work on. I think I jump too much and I sometimes mash when blocking, but I’m starting to get better on not doing that. Also my execution sucks pretty damn hard, I have an especially hard time to pull off super. On top of that I have no sense of spacing what so ever, but I guess that will come with just playing the game a bunch.

EDIT:
So, here’s a second replay.

I think I need to mix in some karakusas in my mixup, which is pretty predictable. In this game I was pretty proud of my defence. I was actually able to react on his divekicks and block high in time of the impact. Also, I learned that you can’t do more than two lk - hayate in a row or your third hayate will wiff. Over all this was a pretty intense and really fun game.

Qritique is much appreciated! Thank you.

gave it a quick watch

use cr fwd (alot) more against Urien as it beats most of his pokes outside of s fp. cr shortxhayate 3x in a row does not work on most characters due to push back.
less random jumping fp and random sa1 when you both have full life

Neutral jumping up is dangerous against urien due to air fireball

punish blocked reg tackles with cr strongxhayate

and multiple times you hit Urien with a high hitting jumping fp then tried to dash in… You typically only dash in there after a deep hitting jump in that is blocked

Post karakusa should pretty much always be fpxwhatever

This kind of advice is great. I’ll try to keep that in mind.

Haha, yeah sometimes I just do random ultis. I have alot of problems with getting it out when I actually need it, so sometimes I just do it to try to get used to the motion. I guess I should rather keep that to training mode.

Great advice, thanks. I tried to punish tackle a couple of times and failed, so I figured that it was safe on block or something.

Yeah, I know. I just have a hard time to get hp out after karakusa, so for the sake of not fucking up I usually just go with mp, which I have an easier time pulling off. Now and again I try hp to practice it, but I fail like 60-70% of the time.

Thanks!

I need to fix my flowchart Makoto. I’m adding a few matches with a Yang player, a Ryu, and a Chun-Li. It feels like the first match was him just watching what I could do because I’m getting parried in the other Yang matches. If anyone has any tips of what I shouldn’t have been doing, I’d appreciate it. If you have tips of what I should be doing more of, I’d appreciate that too. I hate getting parried and I don’t know how to parry back at them. The Chun-Li match is a turtle, and I don’t know how to get in without getting punished.

I just don’t see how anyone can hit confirm online for Makoto’s poke into hayate. I watch videos of japanese Makoto players and I see poke->hayates that aren’t hit confirmed and those are offline. I also want to dash in more into karakusa, but I just don’t get when the oppurtune time for that is. Some people end up spamming cr. jab/short by the time Makoto is starting up and it’s game over for me.

The latter matches have me messing around with the SA1 link from hayate.

My Matches

[details=Spoiler]vs Yang:



vs Ryu:

vs Chun-Li:


[/details]

cr strong hayate confirm becomes second nature after awhile and its not to bad to hit confirm online as you are only letting go of the button when you see it hit (although You also need to know what the max range that strong hayate will combo from cr strong). I miss st strong link shortxhayate more due to lag then cr strong confirm (miss the short link).

As for dashing in and karakusa that is best done when you bait them into whiffing a laggy poke or you get them to block a deep jump-in. You can potentially do it post hayate if you think they are going to back dash.

General advice from the vids

Less random hayate’s … seriously that will get you killed quick. Use it for whiff punishing to start your mixup

You never seem to dash forward after a knockdown and are giving up lots of options because of it. Not saying you always have to dash forward but typically you would.

karakusa->sa1 is a pointless combo. If you just need the damage to kill them do karakusa->s fp/stxxsa1. Standing strong does a point or two less damage and a little less stun but you can link the super instead of cancelling which makes it easier and both do more damage. (karakusa->fpxcharged hayate->sa1 is the best combo btw damage and stun wise although harder)

In the first round of the Yang matchup you killed him with super when it was not needed. After grabbing someone you have plenty of time to check their stun bar/health bar and or your super bar and choose the appropriate option. You should of started the 2nd round up a round with a full stock instead of an empty super bar.

You also through out quite a few random ex orochi’s in interesting situations (sf4 player I’m guessing?). You should not be wasting meter this way especially playing sa1.

Ryu was better with the punishments of sweeps on block and whiff at the end.

Chun was interesting to say the least

I also did not see a single tick karakusa but that was most likely do to your lack of dashing post knockdown and behind whiffed pokes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlDvj2oHHco 10/22/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?edit=vd&v=sIY3MHEDNag 10/23/11

makiato, I was going to review your Chun match, but I just turned it off when I realized she had the wrong super. She also did nothing but sweep most of the time, and didn’t punish anything unsafe you did. Show me a match where you play a Chun who uses SA2 and I’ll look it over for you. Or play me, if you’re on the west coast.

Warning long reply… I don’t have any match vids with my Mak in my youtube (see sig), I think I just have Ibuki matches, but I placed 3rd in a recent tourney with Mak in Milwaukee and I’ve used her since 2005…I need to upload some vids.

There are quite a few good times to dash in karakusa, but it’s risky vs anyone with a good reversal if they expect it or you get predictable. Versus lesser players you can get away with it all day. Make sure you can master the actual input, by practicing doing your hcb+k VERY fast. To do this very quick and fluidly so it looks like “the grab came out of nowhere” you almost have to cancel the karakusa OFF your dash, put in two forward taps and on the second tap keep on it and roll your motion very fast (f, f, df, d, db, b + lk or all three kicks for consistency). This takes practice. Once you get this down you can cancel a dash off a fast low move, usually c.lp, then karakusa, as an alternative to a tick karakusa. (ex. blockstring - dash in, neutral jump late HK, c.lp, dash, grab)

  1. As JAK wisely said, after a laggy poke. Your spacing must be perfect. Makoto’s dash is very fast- the way people can do this consistently is SPACING, learn the distance her dash covers and the relative distance the grab reaches (it’s a little further than a normal throw). The distance for dash-in karakusa is ROUGHLY half screen, but that distance is shorter or longer depending on who you’re fighting- vs twins and Chun it’s longer because they have small hitboxes, vs Hugo you can be nearly fullscreen and still dash in once and grab because he’s so big and Mak’s dash goes far. A good strat I use to success is to get a knockdown, say at the beginning of a round, back dash and move back and forth slightly to psych them out and see what they whiff. As soon as you see a laggy move dash in karakusa. You can also stay out of range after a knockdown and fake hayates to try and fool them into parrying, then as soon as they get up dash in grab.

  2. Two opportune times that have been missed thus far are after an air to air reset and after a normal throw tech. If you hit someone cleanly in the air with j.HK or j.HP, they will get reset back down, and if you dash and grab very fast as soon as you land you can catch them that way. Of course this is situational, and it also usually doesn’t work on a trade unless your opponent is put in the corner after the trade (hence making the distance you cover by dashing much smaller and less consequential). Another good opportunity is after a throw tech. Simple as that, there’s a tech from a normal throw, the flash, both characters bounce back. As they are moving back apart buffer your dash and grab. Be wary of strong players, who will stick out lows after a tech hoping you dash so they can land a super.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, learn all of Makoto’s ticks into karakusa. You don’t generally want to dash in like a madman and just grab. You will eat a low into super when you dash, you will eat a shoryu if nothing else. You have to be “ballsy” with Makoto in 3s to get anywhere but she is much better at landing the grab by setting it up. Using a tick puts the opponent into blockstun and puts you at a frame advantage to land a grab. Good ticks are s.lp, s.mp (meaty), c.lp, c.lk, j.mk (best air tick), meaty UOH. So, instead of just dashing in on wakeup and grabbing, dash in as they get up and do a well timed s.lp then grab. Good players will start parrying this, at that point you can knock them down, backdash, whiff a c.lp, dash in and pause then grab (this way, they are tricked into parrying as they see you do a s.lp, obviously). In the air, her j.MK is great for tick-karakusa (example- dash in twice as they wake up, neutral jump, late MK, karakusa). Of course another great way to land Karakusa is c.lk xx lp Hayate, karakusa. Another way too land Karakusa is to get point blank on the person as they are standing up, “do the dance”/ move back and forth slightly, allow them to stand up all the way (to throw off parry timing), then grab. Basically stay next to them, wait for them to rise fully to a neutral state (which also defeats a reversal window as you wait it out), then immediately grab before they can do anything. The last trick I use is basically what I just said, but throw in a Hayate fake when they are almost all the way back up, then grab. :slight_smile:

All due respect I disagree. It is tremendously easier for new 3s Makoto players to learn and consistently execute than the s.MP link or s.HP cancel (which is very tough). Afaik just hitting the super without comboing it does more damage too. When it comes down to it it’s better for new players to capitalize and land it then to try a tough cancel or link and miss a lot…

To the Makotos in this thread, try and learn and practice other ways of landing SA1 off of pokes. c.mp xx super is good and has good range, it is very easy to do (just a cancel), I almost never see this used… You can also do it off of a c.lk but I think it’s a link and it’s hard. You can cancel into her super off of lp or mp Oroshi (overhead special), good on wakeup, and if the person parries the overhead and attempts to counter with poke -> combo you can still cancel the super anyway and hit them. This can also be Kara’d- s.lk, lp oroshi, super.

Hope this helps anyone who sees it.

[media=youtube]NXOK9qDcHx8[/media]
Okay, defense. I feel like Makoto has none. I felt this match was far more focused on me being defensive but I took way too much in the first round. I think my Makoto’s weakness is jumping opponents. What can anyone recommend against opponents who jump a lot. Her anti-options don’t work to well for me… Though I feel I don’t use c.HK at all for that situation. Do you guys know any useful ways to use fukiage too? I’ve only found it’s application useful against characters like Alex, Q, and Hugo and their gigantic extended air-attack hitboxes. It’s a shitty move, but it’s a great move at the same time it’s just so rare to use it.

Seems well played on your part regardless.

As far as Makoto’s options vs jumpers, she has a lot of options-

Block- in that match the Alex was hitting you with stomp. If he’s outside sweep range he might try and stomp, or rushing chop (b,f+k move). Block high.
Parry the jump in, karakusa
If they jump from beyond midscreen/sweep range Backdash early in their jump before they stick something out, so they whiff, then dash up grab or dash up c.lk, lp hayate
s.mk (works best on someone jumping from midscreen, same with c.mk and c.hk)…
Neutral jump HK or jump back HK. Sometimes if someone is jumping a lot I will just neutral jump early HK on their jump forward attack, I will literally stand in place and neutral jump HK over and over, I’ve had bad players get themselves stunned just trying to beat it over and over.
The fukiage you want to use is EX, then mixup afterward. You can sjc and j.hk or hp. A nice mixup I use is EX fukiage, (wait), s.hp, dash in karakusa. Basically if you land EX fukiage you can can choose not to SJC, then hit them in the air on the way down with s.hp which does good damage and resets, then dash in karakusa.

Any time in that match when he had you in the right corner and was neutral/forward jumping at you in the corner you could have landed an EX fukiage.

The EX fukiage works against characters other than Urien, Hugo, Dudley, Alex, Q, etc well but it’s situational. The best time for it is when they go for a dash in, neutral jump setup after a knockdown. It can be VERY effective vs good Akumas who try and lock you down in the corner with demon flip mixups (cancelling s.mk or s.hp to demon flip), if you parry or block the first hit and they cancel the demon flip anyway buffer the EX fuki off your blockstun or parry flash. I have made full comebacks/stuns against Akumas locking me down in the corner by doing EX fukiage, s.hp reset, dash in karakusa, s.hp EX hayate.

It’s a good reversal but because the opponent needs to be trying to jump over you it is VERY situational. My last bit of advice is to play with it a bit, go into training mode and set the dummy to neutral jump, get right next to him and practice the timing and whatever follow ups you want. Obviously, it isn’t a reversal special, and because she moves forward it’s useless against grounded opponents, you’ll just get thrown out of it.

To simplify: use s.mk against jumpers from outside sweep range. Against neutral jumpers or people forward jumping on you in the corner use EX fukiage. Normal fukiage works too but they must be directly above you (use LP version, it’s fastest). Block high or parry high + grab. If they jump from beyond fullscreen early back dash to avoid a jumpin then forward dash and c.lk lp hayate or tick karakusa (as a mixup response to their jump).

Hope this helps

Leaving out how questionable neural jump mixups are against mak in the corner the easiest way to deal with it is just dash under and now they have just cornered themselves.

Going by the alex match

In the first round you did karakusa cr fwd tick into karakusa. This made no sense because you were in super range with meter. This almost cost you the first round

Air to air rh is generally best (as said)

I forgot about this even though I do it. Good call. You can also try and learn the parry, s.lp reset, dash under karakusa trick.

And yeah neutral jump mixups against Mak in the corner are pretty bad vs higher level players. That’s just asking to get parried -> stun combo’ed. Not everyone is at that level though, and it’s character specific too

You see, I thought that… But I didn’t think I was. About 1/3rd of Makoto’s body was on the timer so I didn’t do it. I’m pretty sure that I’ve done it from that range in practice mode and it has been blocked every time.
Oh, the fwd tick is just part of my mixup. Most people expect HPxHayate so I try to throw them off with something else and get more damage from my karakusa.
I should really use j.RH more often. For some reason I can’t get out of the habit of j.MK.

Here are some sets that me and a friend just finished. I’m trying to find what to do next with makoto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7fnBLRCGPU pt1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRdzR1RyFd8 pt2 (Better cause I warmed up more)