Arstal has the right idea, though 70% is an extremely high number and one that I’m not sure would apply to anything except the absolute bottom of the barrel in Marvel.
I think in 3-D games in general, low-tier characters are more viable than in old-school 2D games. Reason being, the characters in 3-D games are more fundamentally similar, so there aren’t nearly as many lopsided matchups and it mainly comes down to outsmarting the other player.
Actually some moves hit mid and some moves are throws, but if you’re not blocking a high I guess you should be blocking low??
I don’t believe in a hard tier philosophy because of the videos posted and more.
If they are so bad and inherently shitty why are they consistantly beating good comp with them and why are they winning in the first place?
If low tier means = likely not to win in a tourney then are they not high tier in these cases?
Bowser was bottom in SSBM until this guy started to rape people with him. By the looks of it most people were not playing him right or in a way that is practical.
Not saying tiers don’t exist entirely but I don’t believe they are set in stone either.They fluxuate. Sometime someone will play a character in a way that breaks his tier placement by winning tournements and beating good comp.
Go look at YSB/Hayoa’s hugos. You can’t tell me hugo is low tier after the matches they played.SeanP’s Sean is pretty mean too does it accurately put him in worst of the game placement by beating chuns,kens,uriens etc no.
I think tiers fluxiate and accurately tell you how hard the tiered character is to use. Not how good they are. See none of the persons that constructed the tiers were gods,timetravelers or psychics so they can’t tell you something they don’t know for sure when its impossible to know for sure. But they can tell you accurately who is easier to play with overall.
Because the player using that low tier character is exceptionally good (like Kuroda, Hayao, etc). They are able to use the strong points of that low tier character at levels others can’t. That and, they probably have better mastery of the game’s general system (Kuroda/Hayao are extremely good parriers, for instance). There’s more to it though.
Man, I don’t know about you guys, but I wasn’t expecting to see MvC2 stuff… At least in 3S, CvS2, and Melee you have lower tier players that place high, but I don’t know of any for MvC2 expect for Clockw0rk, but doesn’t he use a high tier team in your terms?
Tiers represent how much extra/less effort it takes for one character to beat another character. They assume two players of even skill. This debunks your entire argument, because what you’re talking about is PLAYERS, you can never have two CHARACTERS go at it. Tiers represent theoretical inherent advantages and disadvantages of characters. Sure Hayao and Kuroda have taken their A games to places and just beasted on people, and sure you’ve seen lots of videos or of top players using low tier characters winning hard matchups, but have you seen all the matches where these top players fight relatively unknown players and lose? do you think many of those vids even get posted on youtube?
check this:
[media=youtube]yILMLyJE4Qc[/media] this ken player loses, but could have won if he didn’t fudge his super several times
and check this: [media=youtube]_4hhATK02s0[/media] chun li just cheeses
he loses to other top players just as frequently as he beats them: [media=youtube]1qFmlBcJcwQ[/media]
it’s a well known fact that hayao loses to dudley more than any other character: [media=youtube]FekBWqE9ueA[/media]
Did you watch the Jwong vs. DPC set from last year?
Jwong playing Jill/ruby heart/ken vs. DPC top tier teams.
Jwong loses 10-4. That’s the nature of tiers man. Even jwong, arguably one of the best MVC2 players in the world loses to solid (not amazing) players because of tier handicaps.
To anyone who hasn’t heard of Komoda, watch this now. To everyone who has, WATCH THIS NOW.
[media=youtube]8S8CcUlsAwY[/media]
(remember to click “watch in high quality”)
It’s a highlight reel of him, almost undoubtedly the world’s best Blanka, chewing through a pile of top players at qualifiers for this year’s Tougeki/SBO.
Being relatively well-balanced, tiers in ST aren’t as dominating as in other games, but they certainly do still exist!
I think he overcomes his character’s disadvantages with very comprehensive matchup knowledge, a solid overall sense of when to take risks and when to stay safe, unbelievable yomi, and… the most fun part of any good Blanka, a huge bag of tricks! :bgrin:
Noguchi is my hero.
[media=youtube]QrmJAZaPw0I[/media]
[media=youtube]ZeP9XSOkZCE[/media]
[media=youtube]c3wmgugU_zY[/media]
And now hes my hero, too.
Duuude, those Noguchi videos are awesome. He dismantled a solid KKY, and Muteki is no joke.
It’s great to finally see some ST in this thread; page 7, it was way overdue!
noguchi’s vega is my hero
this thread puts hope into my fighting game life
I don’t know what vid to post of Chibita since he has practically owned everyone with Lion in VF5. Yes, even though Lion’s considered the worst character, he is very well capable of winning tourneys (then again, VF5 is pretty damn balanced; being low tier means you have to work more for the most part, they still have tools to make them distinct).
Does anyone have tourney footage of Brawl in which a (good) Meta Knight player loses to a low tier character? Sometimes I just don’t think it’s possible, but there are players out there that never cease to amaze me. Then again, I find Snake very beatable in comparison. Despite ftilt practically owning your ground game and utilt being a beastly anti-air+kill move, he CAN get gimped somewhat (forget about trying to gimp Meta Knight, it’s just not happening). You have to force him in the edge (somehow) and continue from there.
You should all search for PONY Zangief on youtube… Dudes amazing.
When it comes right down to it…the issue is money…I would think that you wouldn’t risk losing money in a tournament playing a low tier character. I mean all these vids of jwong and all these great players don’t mean shit b/c you’ll NEVER see them in a major tournament playing those low tier teams especially in MvC2 unless they think the people they’re playing aren’t even worth it. Low tier characters will probably NEVER see play in games where the tiers are so distant between each other. Of course there will always be those exceptions.
**
Bottom line, play who you want to play**…just realize that tiers are determined by tournament results…also, you need to take into account the game. Like arstal said…MvC2, 3S, most SNK, SSB (Brawl or Melee); you’re not going to find people winning major tournaments with low tier characters, unlike games like GG and VF5, where “low tier” doesn’t matter all that much…in GG I hear the worse match-up in the game is 7-3 and that’s only 1 match that doesn’t even involve a low tier character…everything else is 6-4 or 5-5.
Another tourney Noguchi won:
[media=youtube]tKrhiMd2HeA&feature=related[/media]
[media=youtube]xIiKiygqI14[/media] (vs Gian!)
[media=youtube]j1lhv9CTtzo[/media]
I think all those videos in the first post are mostly bogus. 80% of them have the tron assist, or doom. The rest are cyclops, lol. I was watching the preppy one when it actually happened and it was not megaman, it was tron that did all the damage, you can see it in the video. Any character can jump back and forth to get majority assist damage. It was funny though. The low tier character are fun, and actually effective, its just most take way too much skill to be realistic options or take way too much damage. Honestly an effective Dhalsim is much harder to use than Magneto, who does waayyy more damage in the first place.
Here’s some videos for those of you who play/are interested in playing Guilty Gear. They’re all of high level Johnny players beating the odds against characters ranging from C to S tier.
For those who don’t play GGAC, Johnny is considered to be one of the (if not, the) overall weakest characters in the game. Though he has some redeeming values (such as his super actually being useful, being hard to combo against and having good defense), he still falls short against the rest of the cast simply because he can’t do as much damage as everyone else (or rather, he has to work much harder to do so). That being said, watch how some resourceful players overcome these weaknesses in tourney-level play.
[media=youtube]5mwIKWLShuU"[/media]
[media=youtube]IO7FEiXcvY0"[/media] (also Johnny’s worst matchup at 7-3)
[media=youtube]MunzL1DA8dw"[/media]
[media=youtube]fFoMzn-E3tU"[/media]
[media=youtube]ZtZpfXug8jE"[/media]
[media=youtube]lULCqwYPQ6Q"[/media]