I filled the data myself, so it depends on how accurate my own doc is 
I didn’t write down juggle potential/count/active/recovery on that one tho.<br>
Frame data is pretty accurate for the most part. I would say it was an excellent job and I do appreciate you for taking your time to do that Street11 so Thank You very much.<div><br></div><div>Now I have to ask, am I the only who feels like Lei’s stances/stance cancels could be better? Now lets look at Kuma for example. I don’t know if many people know but, Kuma has an amazing stance cancel. His stance cancel is so good, that he can hit the opponent, stance cancel, and then raw launch. Are you kidding me? But half of Lei’s stance cancels get BLOWN UP. I was playing offline the other day, and people were just mashing through his stuff. But if you look at Kuma’s frame data, he is PLUS on block on most of his normals. Now I would like to think that I am doing a good job of using Lei’s stances effectively but I feel like capcom did not really reward the player enough for getting into certain stances. Kuma is a really good characters. I wish I could upload some ver.2013 matches of me and Sethlolol so I could show you how good Kuma’s stance cancels are. Maybe I’m ranting but I don’t know. I feel like they could have made Lei’s stance’s a tad bit safer.</div>
That certainly sounds like Lei. I felt like that when I tried him in Tekken (not enough reward for the difficulty, and sometimes get the sensation that he “simply has a lot a moves and that’s it”).<br><br>His regular stance actually seems strong against mashing. I don’t see
much need to change stance when I could beat the opponent without doing
it.<br><br>I would say give it some more time with animal stance. I mean, at least for me, he came much, much later than characters like Kuma, and imho we’ve yet to reach the full potential with him. I’m going to say that it actually got much better than before with all the stance normal buffs and st.LK & st.MK stance cancel. Lei’s buttons are quite good in Snake, so approaching the opponent with Snake in the first place works for me sometimes.<br>Of course, his animal stances have a lot of unique
strings that is not a true blockstring and are heavily
dependent on reading the opponent’s next move as is (one example would
be: Either end the string early and change stance to block SRK mash, or
finish the string against jab mashers). In reverse, you can also say that excluding Razor Rush, those strings are the only ones that will not trade with opponents mashing 3f moves. TBH, I think making a bit safer would either make him too strong or have no impact at all, depending on what they change. Not that I’m against the idea but… I think it still might be a bit too early to make judgements.<br>I did not expect you to compare his stance cancel to Kuma’s however. They’re completely different characters, and they should be approached with different ideas on when to use the stances. I do sorta understand how you envy his stance cancel tho (Xiaoyu has a similar stuff). He got much, much stronger with the stance cancel buff.<br>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/16564/street11">street11</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>That certainly sounds like Lei. I felt like that when I tried him in Tekken (not enough reward for the difficulty, and sometimes get the sensation that he “simply has a lot a moves and that’s it”).<br><br>His regular stance actually seems strong against mashing. I don’t see
much need to change stance when I could beat the opponent without doing
it.<br><br>I would say give it some more time with animal stance. I mean, at least for me, he came much, much later than characters like Kuma, and imho we’ve yet to reach the full potential with him. I’m going to say that it actually got much better than before with all the stance normal buffs and st.LK & st.MK stance cancel. Lei’s buttons are quite good in Snake, so approaching the opponent with Snake in the first place works for me sometimes.<br>Of course, his animal stances have a lot of unique
strings that is not a true blockstring and are heavily
dependent on reading the opponent’s next move as is (one example would
be: Either end the string early and change stance to block SRK mash, or
finish the string against jab mashers). In reverse, you can also say that excluding Razor Rush, those strings are the only ones that will not trade with opponents mashing 3f moves. TBH, I think making a bit safer would either make him too strong or have no impact at all, depending on what they change. Not that I’m against the idea but… I think it still might be a bit too early to make judgements.<br>I did not expect you to compare his stance cancel to Kuma’s however. They’re completely different characters, and they should be approached with different ideas on when to use the stances. I do sorta understand how you envy his stance cancel tho (Xiaoyu has a similar stuff). He got much, much stronger with the stance cancel buff.<br></div>
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I really wish I could show you these ver.2013 matches between Sethlolol and myself. But since he is still active in tournaments, I cant for that reason ( I do have pre-patch matches on my YT channel so please check those out). Kuma’s stance cancels are REALLY good. He can cause some serious stance cancels. To me, it is hard to play Lei without stance cancelling. Its become muscle memory actually. But I will say that those stance cancels Lei has in the stances (I.E. Snake MP x MP x to Dragon) only work on none mashers and you can’t do those up close, you have to do them at max range. I’m finding the max range Snake MP xx Snake HP crumple frame trap pretty useful. What do you mean by 'Regular Stance"? Do you mean with or without Drunken and back turn? I guess it would be possible to win without the stances. There just seems to be less reward than a Kuma. And when I say Seth has maxed that character out, please believe me. Ver.2013 Kuma is a nightmare.
After falling in love with Drunken, Snake now took its´turn.<br><br>St.lk into Snake is the most fun for me by far, Snake just opens up so many possibilities of stance shuffeling. Love doing Snapping Snake (Sp? [lp>mp>lp]) into Panther. Now that Panther has the great lk and cancelable panther´s scratch I feel very confortable pressing buttons in the stance up close. Of course he´s at a disadvantage after the SNake TC, but with new Lei´s upclose pressure people don´t press that many buttons when harassed by his overhead and stuff (of course he can´t do it in Panther and Snake, but who knows this except for us Lei cracks ;)).<br><br>May not be tooo effective once people learn more about him, but it´s just so much fun! <br>
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<div class=“QuoteText”><a href="/profile/68074/The%20Big%20Boss">The Big Boss</a> said:<br>I really wish I could show you these ver.2013 matches between Sethlolol and myself. But since he is still active in tournaments, I cant for that reason ( I do have pre-patch matches on my YT channel so please check those out). Kuma’s stance cancels are REALLY good. He can cause some serious stance cancels. To me, it is hard to play Lei without stance cancelling. Its become muscle memory actually. But I will say that those stance cancels Lei has in the stances (I.E. Snake MP x MP x to Dragon) only work on none mashers and you can’t do those up close, you have to do them at max range. I’m finding the max range Snake MP xx Snake HP crumple frame trap pretty useful. What do you mean by 'Regular Stance"? Do you mean with or without Drunken and back turn? I guess it would be possible to win without the stances. There just seems to be less reward than a Kuma. And when I say Seth has maxed that character out, please believe me. Ver.2013 Kuma is a nightmare.</div>
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Oh do not worry. I believe you 100% when you say that about Kuma stance change. I do not know Sethlolol, but I’ve seen him playing Kuma during 2012, and well, Kuma has that buff now.<br>By regular stance I meant it without the animal stances, so I guess that includes drunk and BT. My apologies for not making that clear.<br>I’m just saying give it some more time. Lei is still a heavily underdeveloped character in my eyes. I also don’t have faith in devs if they end up buffing Lei’s stances.<br>
Thanks so much for updating the list and the work going into it, I know it takes some time. Just wanted to make sure that it is updated before I used it.<div><br></div><div>I have twins due on the 28th so needless to say that I won’t have a lot of lab time, if any. I will need some help to manage what little time I will have. So if you guys don’t mind helping me with some info I would greatly appreciate it. </div><div><br></div><div>I am running Lars/Lei right now (thinking about switching Lars to Bob or Hwo, maybe even Kuma now, lol) and tagging in with lei just doesn’t seem to deal that much damage. the most damage I get with him on a tag is with cr.mp, cr.fp > RH.DP. Is there a better version for him?</div><div><br></div><div>Also I am having an issue with how the system works for tagging. Can someone please explain exactly how the system works? I have some really cool pandora setups with Lei but I just can’t hit them. If I understood how the system works then I could fine tune it so the final hits would work.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks in advance for the info guys. Gonna have my hands full and I will be missing my Lei 
Been playing Lei since Tekken 3. I love this character more than you know and will be fine tuning him into a beast!</div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”>.k 1x<blockquote><div><br></div><div> said:</div>
<div>Thanks so much for updating the list and the work going into it, I know it takes some time. Just wanted to make sure that it is updated before I used it.<div><br></div><div>I have twins due on the 28th so needless to say that I won’t have a lot of lab time, if any. I will need some help to manage what little time I will have. So if you guys don’t mind helping me with some info I would greatly appreciate it. </div><div><br></div><div>I am running Lars/Lei right now (thinking about switching Lars to Bob or Hwo, maybe even Kuma now, lol) and tagging in with lei just doesn’t seem to deal that much damage. the most damage I get with him on a tag is with cr.mp, cr.fp > RH.DP. Is there a better version for him?</div><div><br></div><div>Also I am having an issue with how the system works for tagging. Can someone please explain exactly how the system works? I have some really cool pandora setups with Lei but I just can’t hit them. If I understood how the system works then I could fine tune it so the final hits would work.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks in advance for the info guys. Gonna have my hands full and I will be missing my Lei Been playing Lei since Tekken 3. I love this character more than you know and will be fine tuning him into a beast!</div></div>
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<br>Here´s a collection of some of his most damaging and best situation (and some stylish) post launcher combos:<br><br><p>1. Most damage: st.mk [Drunken] down [Normal] cr.mp, cr.hp xx dp >>> also the best option for corner damage as far as i know</p><p>–> the most damage, the lower your partners launcher is the harder hitting st.mk gets. you can omit the dp followup and go into backturned instead if you want some backturned mixups (you really gotta now what to do in backturned though)<br><br>2. Leaves you in [Crane]: st.mk [Drunken] st.lk>st.mp>st.hk (hold back) [Crane] </p><p>—>Okayísh damage, great distance for annoying your opponents with [Crane] hk and Crane Dance. I really love using thuis, my absolute favorite because it´s a great way to incooperate the otherwise hard to access Crane stance into your game.<br></p><p><br></p><p>3. Leaves you in [Tiger]: f.mp>f.lp [Dragon] mp xx Dragons Spite (hold forward) [Tiger]</p><p>–> pretty bad damage, sends your opponent to the corner, leaves you in [Tiger] to annoy your opponents with armored normals and/or Double Tiger Palm for a crumple. Use this when you´ve got the lead and you plan to sit on it. Try to get your enemy into thinking pressing buttons is the way to go against Lei, then show them that it´s not. Definitelynot failsafe though, use with caution.</p><p><br></p><p>4. Leaves you in [Panther] st.mp>st.lp>st.mp [Panther] hk</p><p>–> also kinda bad damage, but leaves you in a great position: right next to the knocked down opponent in [Panther]. Harass them with continuous light kicks and threaten with Panthers Scratch into a special. Try to get into the head of your opponent with this post launcher combo. Standing right next to an opponent in an animal stance makes them reversal 90% of the time, so use this one if you love conditioning your opponent. Also consider staying right out of dp range and get them with the Panther TC that leads into [Crane] (Personally, I love Panther and use this one quite often)</p><p><br></p><p>5. Corner Style!: f.mp>f.lp [Dragon] mp xx Dragons Spite, qcb.K 1x </p><p>—> useless but cool ;)<br><br><br>So, as you can see I´m a stance lover and often use the launcher combo as utility tool to get into the stance I feel most comfortable in. Can´t imagine playing Lei without these and the Launcher is a great way to get into the more exotic ones. Better than just cycling into the stance when you´re fullscreen away at health disadvantage ;)<br><br>Hope these helped, maybe someone else can help you about the Tag mechanics. If not, I´ll write some stuff down the next days. Oh, and good luck on the baby stuff :)<br></p></div></blockquote>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”>Edit: Double post, love the new forum!<br></div></blockquote>
Well, tagging for damage depends on which move you tag it from:<br>1. Simple launcher<br>There are two ways you can go from here:<br>a.
st.MK xx Drunk -> crouch (-> cr.MP) -> cr.HP xx HK DP ->
follow-up (raw launcher: 324 damage without follow-up, 344 damage with
follow-up. You’re put in a better offensive situation is better if you
don’t do follow-up, you can do tag cancel at the HK DP; it’s better to
omit cr.MP if you’re doing that)<br>b. Well-timed st.MP (not too high,
not too low. cr.HP is possible but extremely difficult) xx Flip Kick (any non-EX version, gotta
hit twice) -> cr.HP xx Tornado kick*2 (raw launcher: 320 damage,
situation is slightly better than upperkick finish, and it builds
slightly more meter)<br><br>2. Tag cancel<br>This basically depends on which move you tag from:<br>-
From floating moves (DPs for example. Low is for moves with a low float
- a high float compatibility and High is for moves with a high float):<br>Low-1.
st.MK xx Drunk -> crouch -> cr.MP -> cr.HP xx HK DP (possible
on basically any move with a float. easiest version. In the corner
change [st.MK xx Drunk] to [step back -> st.MP or cr.MK])<br>Low-2.
MP Orchid Palm -> st.MK xx Drunk -> crouch -> cr.HP xx HK DP
(timing is strict but deals more damage than Low-1 and builds more meter. Possible from Lars’
Rising Storm for example. midscreen only)<br><br>High-1. j.HK ->
st.MK xx Drunk -> crouch -> cr.HP xx HK DP (possible on moves with
a high float. All you have to do is time the jump to make sure j.HK
hits at the apex of Lei’s jump)<br>High-2. MP/HP Orchid Palm -> j.HK
-> cr.HP xx HK DP (very difficult because you have to time it so that
only the upper hand hits the opponent and timing varies depending on
the type of floating move. This one is not possible after Lars’ LK Lightning Screw)<br><br>There are some combos that put you in a specific animal stance, but I’m not an expert with doing them from a floating move I’m afraid.<br><br>- From Ground Bounce moves (Mjolnir)<br>a. st.MK xx Drunk -> crouch -> cr.MP -> cr.HP xx HK DP<br>b. st.MK xx Drunk -> LK xx MP xx HK -> back or 2P (Either goes to crane or sips; damage is much lower than a)<br><br>Consider wall bounce follow-ups possible with both post-launcher combos and post-float combos.<br><br><br>EDIT: Looks like somebody got combos into animal stances ;)<br><br>About the system… well I’m sure you know that there are juggle limits set into each move. If you tag cancel, the juggle count is reset to 0. However, after Pandora, it is not. You have to be careful when doing Pandora because of this. Lei is also not the best character to Pandora into since his Super doesn’t connect fully on airborne opponents and adds a huge amount of juggle count, making follow-ups nearly impossible.<br><br>If you are using Lei as a Pandora sacrifice, he can do it right after a flip kick. Timing is strict (it’s slightly easier after the EX version), but you can combo a fast normal after, letting the partner land a ground combo. It’s all a matter of getting used to it.<br>
Thanks so much, both of you. That is exactly what I needed. Been messing with him in the lab for a while now a came up with a few things but wasn’t doing mk cancel into D at on a tag. I like that option a lot as I use it in my jump ins for an oki into an overhead or low once conditioned. <div><br></div><div>I keep hearing that there is a way to do longer combos with stances. Is this true?</div><div><br></div><div>Also I seen the video where desk does lei’s ex cartwheel into cr.fp. I can do it but the question is is that desk said that it is a 1 frame unplinkable combo. Is that true that it can’t be plinked? I use it for pandora setups. if I get a hit with mp or fp go right into ex cartwheel and then cr.cancel into cr.fp into mp.orchid palm > pandora then super with Lars. It does a little over 500 if I start it with a cr.fp.</div><div><br></div><div>You can also do a jump in fp into pandora and you have all day to do a 4-5 frame normal/special for decent damage if you can hit confirm fast enough Just throwing that out there if someone wants to mess around with it to see what else he can do with that. </div><div><br></div><div>I did figure out the ex cartwheel into pandora. Tried regular version but I need to get lars cr.mp for best dmg so ex is optimal if I have meter.</div><div><br></div><div>But yeah lei is def not a good character for pandora with airborne opponent. I am working on getting a setup where they are grounded. That would def be sick damage with his bnb.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks again for the quick response. I am going to get on it in a little bit.</div>
I’m actually not sure about the stance combos. Maybe you’re talking about his solo bnb with flip kick into BT MK xx HK TC, or something like Crane Dance -> BT TC? If you’re talking about tag cancel what you can do is (on a very high float, in the corner) manual change stance to Dragon -> Dragon MP xx f+2P -> Tiger -> 2P (wall bounces) -> HK DP.<br><br>It is true that EX flip into cr.HP cannot be plinked. This is because if you’re frame perfect, you will get BT HP instead of cr.HP. You have to manually delay the link by 1f and thus have no reason to plink in the first place.<br><br>You can also do st.MK xx Drunk into Pandora! The problem is that you have to connect with a frame perfect 3f move (and you have to activate Pandora frame perfect as well)<br>
i know this isn’t the match up thread but that thread seems to be a little dead lol but what do u guys do in the Dudley match up i cant press anything his pressure is annoying, and we all no dudley’s just love pressing buttons lol any tips would be appreciated <br>
Loving all the lei info. Gonna try to implement all this into my game plan. Personally with lei for pressure I like going razor edge >> dragon >> lk (hold forward) >> crane >> poke with lk until I can possibly get crane dance off. If it hits I juggle as I see fit lol. If its blocked I go into back turn from crane dance and do the HP, MP, LK, LP target combo into drunken. This is all unofficial but it works pretty well for me most of the time. Probably cause most opponents don’t want to risk pressing buttons against lei lol.
I want to learn this character bad…but I don’t even know where to start gona have to read through this thread from the start I imagine? lol
I’m assuming u use Gen. Don’t b fooled. Lei is nothing like Gen lol.
What would you like to learn first? The Basics gameplan? BnB’s? Team Placement?
Keep him at range with s. mk and throw in a few neutral jumps if they’re stupid. It’s not that difficult… you should be pressuring him.
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/68152/SiQ">SiQ</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>i know this isn’t the match up thread but that thread seems to be a little dead lol but what do u guys do in the Dudley match up i cant press anything his pressure is annoying, and we all no dudley’s just love pressing buttons lol any tips would be appreciated <br></div>
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all of that lol
I’m thinking of using him on Point with Steve as Anchor, when I did original post I was on the fence, but I’m jumping in now officially.
noticing that you can’t get full super off of a GB or juggle with him, that kinda sucks, but I’m sure there are ways around that.
Biggest mystery of Lei as an onlooker without doing all the reading and lab work is how exactly and when exactly do you go into the stances and how do you control how you get to the stance you want at the right time, character seems super deep.
Good luck running point Lei. If you run him on Point I suggest you talk to swoops who posted a few post above this one. Also Lei can get full super off a ground bounce. Now juggle is something else TBH but you still have good comboability after the air juggle and it sets up Pandora as well. Lei has so many moves and stuff so just go a few pages back and you will see all the BnBs and all that good stuff. Check out the tier list thread as well where they discuss post tag BnBs and things of that nature.