The Instant Shining Argument (Against Clones)

I was just Winter Brawl or one of the other latest Tekken Tournaments… and they made a pretty compelling argument against only using clone characters.

My main teams are Leo/Marduk, Kazuya/Devil Jin, and King/Armor King.

So I decided to go into the lab and have a look.

Now since I’ve been putting together a beginner’s combo guide on the Instant Shining Wizard… I decided to boil the argument down to just a taggable launcher into the Instant Shining Wizard (since that’s what I had been working on).

King’s D+1+2 into Armor King’s ISW 48 dmg
Armor King’s Dark Uppercut into King’s ISW 46dmg

Lee/Violet’s Hitman(1+2),2 into Violet/Lee’s ISW 51 Damage

Now… Armor King’s Dark Uppercut into Violet/Lee’s ISW does 52dmg

That’s SIX more hitpoints than King’s ISW. That can be the distance between finishing or not finishing an opponent. And that’s just if that’s the only move you do. What’s more significant though is that you’ve been fighting the whole round with slow-ass Armor King and now the other player has to defend against a much faster opponent. This may not mean much at the Tournament level… but online and in the arcades this will KILL.

Lee/Violet’s Hitman,2 into King/Armor King’s ISW only gets you 1 extra damage point… but you can launch the opponent after a much longer string than that and use the ISW for the kill. This is especially useful with King and Armor King’s wall game because you can do about 30-40 damage with a wall string and THEN do a pickup Giant Swing with King or a pickup knee to the back of the head with Armor King each for an additional 30 dmg OR you can use Armor King’s pick up push BACK into the wall where you can do ANOTHER 30-40 damage AND THEN DO THE WHOLE THING AGAIN!

I also picked Jaycee… who I’m completely unfamiliar with.

King’s D+1+2 into Jaycee’s ISW only does 44dmg… and I don’t know what her one-hit taggable launcher is… BUT her Spinning Kicks Slash Uppercut (4,4,1) into King’s ISW does 83dmg which means all you have to do is land the FIRST KICK of that string on an opponent with even half their life and it’s good night nurse!

The possibilities are ridiculous when you think about characters like Jack teaming up with anyone else I mentioned on this page.

Ultimately the clone characters are going to stop winning tournaments because, as people develop new tech and new team combinations the clones will be left at a disadvantage, both in terms of damage output and in terms of technique and mind games. Double Dragons are already getting their asses kicked at the tournament level and Jacks/P.Jack’s aren’t doing as well as they used to.

So now is the time to train in the lab with combinations of moves and teams that nobody’s ever even thought of before.

It’s still a young game… and most people are still at the stage where they’re copying off of something they saw on TeamSpooky.

It’s a great time to innovate.

Just saying but said Spinning Kicks Slash Uppercut is not natural combo, if you land the first hit you are very liable to have the following two or at least the third (the launcher part) blocked. Unless you opponent trys to interrupt after the first hit, in which case you’ll get the second hit to counter, this won’t combo.

I think you should learn the game better before you share your insight on forums. Also character/team effectiveness isn’t just juggle damage. True Ogre has amazing juggle damage+carry but he’s one of the weaker characters in the cast.

That’s unforunate…

So what is her one-hit launcher then? Or does she have another set of moves that will combo into a launcher?


That’s a valid argument… which I am going to completely disregard.

But I do respect your opinion.

However… If I’m wrong… I’d like for someone to explain to me WHY I’m wrong (like Alpha-452 just did) because if I think I’m right… I’ll never know otherwise unless somebody tells me.

And, with all due respect, I don’t think you should be telling people what they can and can’t share on a forum that in by no means overcrowded and barely gets more than a few posts a day. (Speaking specifically about the Tekken forum here.)

To be completely fair, we’re less concerned with the quantity of posts here; especially in a game with so much information and time and effort required just to be competent, we’re definitely focusing on quality.

First thing I want to address is the notion of a disregarded argument. If someone presents you with a valid argument and you admit that fact but then choose to willingly disregard it, you’re being entirely uncooperative with the spirit of debate, much less mutual understanding and help. If someone presents you with a valid argument and you feel as though they didn’t completely educate you (something which you attempted to allude to later in your post), then that’s fine but you need to plainly say so without typical forum rigamarole. We don’t have time for that here, in a very real sense (other places shouldn’t have time for it either, but whatever).

Regarding your discussion about clone characters, I’m getting two different messages and both of them are kind of fuzzy. The first is that clone characters do more damage than their original counterparts, but are somehow not good or will be disadvantaged later on down the line. The other message that I’m picking up is that now is a good time to switch up teams and to innovate.

Your clone character statements are, I feel, a little misplaced or entirely out of context. You seem to be working strictly off of damage numbers, and after that strictly off of certain combinations with certain other characters and doing very weird damage tests. I’m picking up not only a very limited knowledge of the game from you, but also a lack of general understanding with regards to the way the game fundamentally operates. Unlike Street Fighter and Marvel, there are so many different aspects to a character besides their launchers and their combo damage. I feel that you’ve cherry picked to such an extreme level that you either inadvertently or purposefully have completely thrown out an extremely large portion of the game and its mechanics to make a rather flimsy point that I don’t think would hold up if you re-read it to yourself out loud.

Not quite sure why you’re only using clone teams tagging into other clone teams (or into themselves) for these tests, but again, you are restricting your character view to the point where using these teams as examples isn’t making a whole lot of sense, but let’s play devil’s advocate and pretend that the examples are not only sound, but optimal. Afterward, you make a claim saying that six points of damage may not mean much at a tournament level, but means a lot online and in arcades and to be honest, I don’t think the gameplay between arcades and tournaments is different enough to warrant that claim. Now, if you’re purporting that online combos are either dropped more frequently or do less damage overall because of input decisions combined with lag, meaning those six points add up over time, then I can kinda see where you’re coming from, but you see how far I had to stretch that to work, right?

Your sudden shift to an example with Jaycee is even more confusing, since you’re now using King and Jaycee to talk about damage without using Michelle OR Armor King, so the whole thing seems very convoluted. Your game inexperience shows here by using Jaycee’s 4,4,1 string when that string does not combo naturally. Not being familiar with Jaycee can be a perfectly valid excuse, but being in training mode and not setting the CPU to block on the first available chance is not an excuse and shows that you either are training incorrectly or are not familiar enough with how strikes and combos operate within the Tekken framework.

From there, it seems like you’re saying because clones are somehow better than their original counterparts (which wasn’t ever really discussed in your previous paragraphs or examples), that they will lose out in the long run because, after more people having played them for so long (because they’re better than their original counterparts), other tournament players will develop strategies to beat them. This is considering tournament play despite the fact that you had mentioned six points of damage not meaning much in tournament earlier, which is just one part of a generally fuzzy aura that your argument gives off.

Please allow me to be very frank with you.

Your argument is essentially stating the following, if I were to put it in valid terms that would be presenting a cohesive argument: If Player A takes Character X and combos into Character Y, that combo will do Z damage…however, if Player B takes Character P and combos into Character Q, then that combo will do Z+ damage! If you take some time to re-read your argument, that’s all you’re saying. And the real messed up part is that, technically, you’re right! Different characters do varying amounts of damage in different situations. And you know what happens if Player C uses Character F, who is not even a clone character, instead? He does Z++ damage ohhhhhhhh snap! It’s kind of easy to take this apart. Let’s look at your King/Armor King example in the first paragraph. You perform a one hit tag launcher into an iSW with both characters. The first point of discrepancy is the nature of the launcher…are the targets blown straight up or away and what is the difference in launch height between the two? These factors all determine which followup combos are possible. Next, you end the combo with an iSW BUT most combos don’t immediately end in iSW, making this test mostly invalid unless your aim is to see whose iSW does more damage. So King to Armor King iSW may do more damage, but may Armor King to King does more damage overall because King might (I honestly don’t know) do more juggle damage before he can go into his iSW (if he can juggle into iSW). Tag assaults are also a part of this conversation if you want to talk about iSWs, since they’re the easiest and most common way to perform combo ending iSWs.

Please believe me when I say that damage isn’t going to determine who is better than who and who is going to get played more often in tournaments. It’s definitely a factor, however. Damage is not the endgame and character choice is driven by damage even less, I think. What’s more, competent tournament players need to break down many characters regardless of their presence in tournaments. Oftentimes, the novelty effect gets you a lot of mileage against novice to intermediate level players; uncommon characters can be quite threatening and if you suppose that damage is what’s going to determine character presence in tournaments, then uncommon characters should technically never be played since they’re not played now and the characters played now are the easymode ones that do more damage overall (and keep in mind that, at this point, we’ve more or less abandoned the original argument regarding clone characters long, long ago) and picking up the underused characters insinuates performing with less damage and less viability. This is all from your supposition regarding damage and its value in a tournament environment AND equating, or factoring it heavily in, with a character’s immediate worth.

I think you just need more experience and possibly a tutor to kinda help you see the different facets of the game, how it operates, and what factors go into choices like character choice, team choice, combo choice, and tactic choice. This is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

I wasn’t completely disregarding juggles, bounds and all that. I was merely isolating one specific part of the game that I happened to be working on. I absolutely need more experience with the game. I think… at this early stage… EVERYBODY needs more experience with the game. There are tournament champions out there right now who are still either under-utilizing… or completely unaware of certain elements of the characters that they use all the time and how they can be used in TTT2.

There are other tournament level players that are still playing like Tekken 6.

I have yet to find, however, anywhere that you can go to have in-depth discussions about the game with a high volume of responses. (For UMVC3, for example, you can ask any question about any character on almost any forum and get a reply in about 40 seconds or so.) That could just be because I haven’t found the right place. I’m sure I could go to Gamefaqs or something and get some quick and detailed responses… but I haven’t been there in years (don’t even remember my user/pass).

So yeah… I’d love some type of tutor but I have no idea where to get one. So if you could recommend some sites, that would be appreciated.

The only real place I can recommend (and I don’t even want to, really) is Kor’s Tekken Academy on Facebook.

I don’t want to recommend it because the Facebook thing has almost completely sapped the discussion from other sites that already have trouble keeping up steady streams of information and communication between new and skilled players, but it does its job well so I suppose I shouldn’t be too mad.

Most sites right now are either mostly newer players (T5/T6/TTT2) like here or older players (T1/T2/TTT1) Like TekkenZaibatsu who don’t like to share information or feel that all the things they know are common knowledge. It’s a rough deal and hopefully we’ll get to the point where people can look up information for a game or a character without having to dig through a decade’s worth of forum posts to get what they need.

Thanks. I couldn’t even get an ACCOUNT at TekkenZaibatsu… I got some message saying all accounts needed to be “approved” and then mine was declined… for absolutely no reason. So the hell with them.

I’ve been around and around to other sites… but never found anything worth mentioning. I had a question about how to do a combo I saw in a video (posted the video and everything), and never did get a definitive reply.

I’ve played all the Tekken games since Tekken 1. A lot of things I can figure out on my own… but how are you supposed to figure out things you didn’t even know existed?

But thanks for the tip about Kor’s Tekken Academy. Sorry if I seemed a bit gruff at first… Getting TTT2 information can be frustrating.

UPDATE: Kor’s Tekken Academy is AWESOME!

I asked a question and got an answer in like THREE MINUTES. Really friendly guys. Thanks for the hookup!

dunno why you guys have so much trouble with TZ I have been registered with them for more than a year (counting the last account I lost the info to), and they’re always more than willing to help out. i learned quite a bit from there. Now it seems you don’t have the dummy set right for practicing combos I usually have mine set to:
Action 1: Stand
Action 2: Guard All
Action on the floor: Side roll or tag crash

that way you’ll know if they can tech or if anything is NC or Natural combo on counter hit. plus on my channel I post regularly solo and tag team combos.


I love your stuff! Seriously…

You’re the guy that got me started with this game with your Asuka/Leo combo guide.

Since you just happen to be in my thread now… (which… I’ve never had ANYBODY that I follow magically show up and speak to me before) I want to tell you that I really appreciate the work you did and the way I do my videos is sort of an homage to that. (Leo’s F+3, D,1,2 is NOT something who hasn’t used Leo is going to come by naturally.)

There are a lot of combo videos out there, but you were one of the only guys to actually SHOW how to do the damned things.

Now… As far as Tekken Zaibatsu goes… I tried to sign up for the site way back when I got the game… I don’t know how difficult it’s supposed to be… I put in my contact info like any other forum. And they just flatout rejected it. I mean… Username… password… email… same as here… same as anywhere. I don’t understand it at all. Maybe if you know somebody there you can ask them what the hell is going on.

I just did, by telling you that you measure character effectiveness wrong. Some points of juggle damage ain’t worth much. Poking ability and good launchers (Your “slow-ass” Armor King is good in both BTW) determines a character’s success.

Well there you have it! If I hadn’t posted I wouldn’t have known that. :stuck_out_tongue:

The “argument” against clones is that it avoids the burden of learning 2 characters in TTT2, but hey every game will have easier and harder characters to learn, or in this case, teams.

Yeah that’s the primary argument. But there are tactical advantages to a more diverse team as well. I may not know all of them, but I know that there are. It’s been the same for every tag game going back to Street Fighter vs Xmen.

even so, they’re still unique enough that you still have to learn them. Jun and Asuka may play similar, but their moveset varies enough to where they need to be played differently. At least that’s how I see the clone characters.

Jun and Asuka sure… Even Jin and Devil Jin.

Lee and Violet?

…not so much.

Jin has no real normal EWGF, no hellsweep, and requires a different mindset.

Devil Jin plays like Tekken 3 Jin which is more mishima. He has more mixup out of his wavedash, a hellsweep, a normal electric, a TGF, and FLY.

They vary very much in how they are played.

Lee and Violet have some moves the other doesn’t and Violet has Violet specific combos, but then again he is just Lee with a different outfit.

Yeah I know! Hahahaha. I was agreeing with you. :slight_smile:

That’s what the Jun/Asuka, Jin/Devil Jin “sure” meant.

I know lol