Chun-Li really didn’t have a good answer to it in ST, either (if you look at the videos you posted, of Chun v Fei, you’ll see that that almost all of them struggled with it really badly), and
The fact that Short CW has Fireball invulnerability on startup removes one of the most reliable counters/deterrents to CW spam.
So, while it’s true that Chicken Wing was nerfed in other ways, it doesn’t really make a big difference; Fei can’t combo into CW anymore, but it was the fact that she had no good answer in the first place that was the problem. The priority at the beginning of the CW is worse, but it still doesn’t create an opportunity for Chun to beat CW without a guess.
from watching the videos zaspacer linked, here’s what I saw:
SBK was attempted at least five times to get out of CW. That’s a big move that’s not available in HDR
Kikouken was also used a lot to keep Fei out at midrange (where short CW would hit her in HDR).
So her two biggest answers in VST don’t work in HDR.
I also saw one player use standing RH very effectively. I’ll have to experiment with that.
Finally, zaspacer, there’s a couple of other differences:
Neckbreaker was used several times in those matches. Since she can’t trap with neckbreaker anymore, that’s effectively less damage for chun in HDR
Chun’s super does less. That’s less damage for chun in HDR
HDR fei can juggle after CW in HDR. That’s effectively more damage in HDR.
So in summary
Fei’s overall damage went up
Chun’s overall damage went down
Chun lost her two best answers to CW (kikkouken, SBK).
I’m very curious to hear what comments he has and what Cammys give him the hardest time. (and how those Cammys do vs. him)
HAHAHA, love it.
MiloDC gives my Dictator a hard time.
I haven’t played jchensor’s Cammy, but I expect he can play her well.
How do the following Cammy’s match up?
Sirlin Prime
[media=youtube]-SU1c_cr-Rc&feature=related[/media]
Syxx573
[media=youtube]OBwKW0OwIJs[/media]
Critical King
Damdai
[media=youtube]dt266HiUHfs[/media]
Bruce Askew
snake eyez
KENKOH
spiritenz
AKA v2
Irvine Deveraux
Does Wescyde or Penguin play Cammy?
Seems like Kens can pick her up pretty fast.
Their post was a lot easier to reply to than yours.
I started some vid review to reply to yours, but it was taking way too long so I put it on hold.
Here is what I had:
=Non-Corner Chicken Wing=
Cross (Fei Long) vs. Nuki (Chun)
[media=youtube]A_XKg4q0jxU[/media]
0:51 in: Fei hits with crouching MP, follows-up with Chicken Wing, Chun does standing block (only one attack from Wing lands, it is a block hit), Fei throws toward with punch (putting Chun into corner), Chun techs throw, Fei follows up with Chicken Wing
1:00 in: Chun getting up off ground, Fei does cross-up Chicken Wing, Chun does standing block (two attacks from Wing land, they are blocked hits), Chun switches to crouching block, Fei does standing LP, Chun switches to crouching block briefly then back to standing block, Fei Does kick throw toward, Chun techs throw.
=Corner Chicken Wing=
Cross (Fei Long) vs. Nuki (Chun)
[media=youtube]A_XKg4q0jxU[/media]
0:53 in: Fei does Chicken Wing to Chun who is landing from tech throw, Chun standing blocks (two attacks from Wing land, they are blocked hits), Chun switches to crouching block, Fei does standing HP into Chicken Wing
0:54 in: Fei does Chicken Wing, Chun standing blocks (two attacks from Wing land, they are blocked hits), Chun switches to crouching block, Fei does crouching LK, Chun stops crouching block, Fei hits with crouching MP, follows-up with Chicken Wing
0:55 in: Fei hits with crouching MP, follows-up with Chicken Wing, Chun jumps up with HP hitting Fei out of Wing
Basically, my point is that it’s great to have a single, simple counter to a problem scenario (move, trap, mix-up, loop, etc.), but for many characters it’s often not that simple.
Sometimes there IS no countermove, there is simply a plan to stay out of distances/set-ups that give the opponent the option to use the problem scenario, a plan on how to minimize damage from the problem scenario once you get caught in it, and a plan on how to get out of the problem scenario.
Watching footage of good players dealing with (or playing around, or surviving) the Chicken Wing can give you some insight into how to deal with it.
Learn block strings.
Learn patterns in opponent set-ups. (like how the Chun above reacted to the crouching Strong into Chicken Wing pattern with a jump up Fierce)
Learn the nuances of where the chicken wing hits for each version, so you know what the push back with be and what mix-up options they have afterward.
Learn when to expect the throw, learn when you want to tech, and how to follow-up after the tech. (Chun above techs the kick throw and stores for an upkick)
etc.
I play Dictator in ST, I played Guile in HF.
Both characters can get stuck in a situation where they just don’t have the tools to cleanly put an end to a problem scenario.
So you learn how to block really well, you learn how to wiggle out of tight places, you learn what normals might slow them down, if you can get out then you learn how much life you’re gonna likely lose before you can get out, and if you can’t get out you learn to get lucky (and how to use that lucky break) or you learn to die.
Here’s some bonus vids:
Aqua Snake (Fei Long) vs. Cesar (MonGoloRoboKop) (Chun Li)
[media=youtube]7I1YOMKWYmw&feature=PlayList&p=4C2C582253D6E118[/media]
Sirlin (Fei Long) vs. Chris Doyle (Chun Li)
(1 of 2) [media=youtube]LvEnVKTabsE[/media]
(2 of 2) [media=youtube]iYGqqmUhbms[/media]
Crap, yeah, I forgot about all those Cammy’s! Some of them I don’t even know, but then again I’ve never played any of those Cammy’s. But let’s see what they say.
EDIT: Great Sirlin v. Thelo match, but even Sirlin lost.
Sirlin Prime vs. dev3stator
[media=youtube]BTWfcYGYkdM&feature=channel_page[/media]
[media=youtube]NgJrIB1Uem0&feature=channel_page[/media]
[media=youtube]Oe-XfRK7WCU&feature=channel_page[/media]
[media=youtube]v-kQ_YjfUyU&feature=channel_page[/media]
MiloDC vs. EA meGamAN
[media=youtube]U6QZx5eQqnY[/media]
(ST) Monja (E.Honda) vs. Sawada (Cammy)
[media=youtube]YfwuPe_uUr4&feature=related[/media]
Ok, so Sirlin definitely has Dev3stator’s number. I don’t know what level Dev3stator plays at now, but based on the vids I consider him to be *at least *solid. Then again, Dev made some mistakes which I didn’t see Thelo make last night at all, and he fell for the Hooligan alot more. I’m gonna definitely say the matchup is 8-2, with the 2 being reserved for the rare occasion where Cammy does beat Honda (ex. Sirlin v. Dev).
Personally, it’d be cool if all the Cammy’s could gather in a 6-player room and face-off against Thelo.
BTW, here’s how I’ve fared against some of Live’s better Honda’s:
v. Thelo = completely dominated
v. Kurropi = completely dominated
v. EA Megaman = came very close to winning but didn’t
v. Corbulo = came very close to winning but didn’t
v. Mad Possum = completely dominated
v. SuperNYC = came very close to winning but didn’t
v. MASTAR F = won
v. xlFreakxl = won (only played one match though)
v. NavyFenix = evenly split, but I may have a slight advantage
v. ALPHAVILLAIN = I think I lead here, not sure
Again, I may be forgetting some players I’ve faced.
I guarantee you we’d take a couple of those. I’ve played a couple matches against Thelo, most are close, he wins most of them, but we’d take a couple of those, could I beat him in a tournament? I don’t think so, can I beat him in a one off? Oh yeah!
Just one problem… where are you going to find 5 Cammy players? LOL
The one Cammy player that has actually given me trouble and made me play for real is Sirlin, at last year’s Evo (in that same session as these Thelo Honda vs Sirlin Fei Long videos that are floating around). If I remember correctly, we went something close to Honda 6 - 4 Cammy then, which is my source for that matchup.
I wrote a bit about this matchup a few pages back:
Thrust kick in general is an incredibly important tool for Cammy vs Honda and it’s how she can win the matchup. While defending, your default action should be vertical jumping MP -> reaction thrust kick. I saw you trying to do vertical jumping MP -> anticipation thrust kick, which really doesn’t work as well.
To do it, I suggest doing the f, d, df motion while coming down, then only hitting a kick button once you’ve actually seen Honda come flying towards you (either through a jump or headbutt). My strategy as Honda, once I understood that you didn’t actually use reaction here, was a simple “25% fierce headbutt your prejump frames from whatever distance, 75% keep blocking”, but this won’t work once you start being able to thrust kick my headbutts on reaction.
Another place where you can use reaction to your advantage is against jump-ins. After a few games, I understood that you weren’t able to properly counter my jump-ins, so they effectively became free damage for me. This was especially noticeable when you were doing a barrage of whiffed normals on the ground (to prevent my headbutts and HHS) - you were generally so focused on doing these normals that you didn’t focus on jumping on me when I walked forward to sweep, on thrust kicking my jump-ins, or even on thrust kicking my HHS after blocking my jump-in. These whiffed normals should be something that you do without even paying attention to them, so that you can focus entirely on reacting to my other attempts to get in.
That is what you can do when you have life advantage (or even at round start) and are trying to maintain it, but things get a lot hairier when you’re behind, and trying to get in on Honda. Before you get in life disadvantage, you have a good array of options and the matchup seems fair, but once you lose it is when you have to work a lot more. Here are some things you can try:
The best setup for a Hooligan throw, by far, is canceling a blocked normal attack into it. This leaves Honda the least amount of time to react, and is generally the most confusing one since it happens at a time where Honda can expect to need to block a cannon drill. (Of course, even landing a blocked normal on Honda can be hard)
Cannon drills are your friend! They are safe on block, and lead into a mixup: if Honda blocks one, then tries to HHS or headbutt you back for chip damage, you can beat it every time by just following the drill with a thrust kick. However, if Honda expects that and just keeps blocking, you can follow-up with other usual Cammy-at-close-range things (low MP/MK -> drill, low MP/MK -> hooligan throw, walk-up throw)
You can also try a variant of the T. Hawk mixup: jump-in with a whiffed MP, then thrust kick Honda’s headbutt (this works because you land out of range of the jab headbutt’s invincible frame). Then, when Honda learns to not headbutt into your foot, you can do whiffed jump MP -> other things, or real jump MP -> other things.
One thing I saw you definitely being able to do well was the un-headbuttable crossup after getting a knockdown. Cammy is one of the rare characters who can actually pull it off, and it’s definitely rewarding when you land it, so go for it when you can.
Hope this helps! I’ll be around this evening, maybe we can get in some Cammy v Honda action before I have to go record WWL matches.
I’ve generally had problems with close jump-ins, I just don’t react fast enough. That’s one thing keeping me from reaching the next level. The characters I hate facing the most: Blanka, Vega, Bison. They are all fast and have quick attacks (jump-in, claw dive, headstomp) that make me hesitate too much. Usually what kills me in these matchups is my hesitation. Whenever I face BlueTallCans, for example, I know WHAT he’s going to do but constantly whiffing st. mp to counter his roll makes me flinch when he jumps in for the lk > grab.
One thing I’ve noticed, and this is REALLY weird. I am able to combo much faster and react much better when I play really nervous. If I lean towards my TV and kind stiffen up my body, I get into my “zone.” Its a really weird sensation. When I’m relaxed I play the worst. Anyone else?
Doubt it, my friend. I literally don’t play ranked. You may have played my Dee-Jay, as he was the main character I used to get my ranked wins. But this was last year.
Sure. Understand that I can literally play against you forever, so don’t hesitate to just leave. I can understand if it might become dull for you. I’ll most likely be there tonight.
So here’s my question for that match: was it the characters, or was it Sirlin?
I mean, let’s face it, top players can always make characters more effective than they are. What would happen if SIRLIN used Honda against the best Cammy player? That might be even more harsh, but in the opposite direction. Like, regardless of what we think of Ryu, I’m sure if Choi used Ryu, Ryu would seem waaaay better than he actually is. People say, for example, Gief has the advantage against Ryu now. I’ll bet if a great Gief player played Choi’s Ryu, he’d lose 20-0 anyhow.
Sirlin might just be one of those players that cannot be used in this type of thing unless he plays it from both sides <EDITED TO ADD:> or plays someone else that has been proven to be at his level </EDIT> because, in general, his level of play is that much higher than ours.
I’ve played some really knowledgeable Hondas. There actually is a small enough window that you can Headbutt and Cammy can’t DP when she lands. Otherwise, we’d all be able to DP sweeps with or without Trip Guard. I’ve had Hondas do it to me. And it’s not hard to learn the timing, since Cammy has a whole Jump in front of her. It’s not like you have to react to it or anything. Maybe you were actually timing it just right so Noriega couldn’t DP. It sounded to me like he WAS buffering the motion while Jumping Straight up and down. Did I read that wrong from your post, Noriega?
Yeah, I don’t think Hooligan is a really valid option. It’s like trying to Hooligan Guile or Balrog. It just doesn’t happen. Charge characters are so hard to Hooligan if they have a Razor Kick-like move and if they have good reaction, which it sounds like you do, Thelo. The only way it works is if you trick them into losing their Charge somehow, which is a LOT harder to do to Honda and Guile than it is on Balrog, for example. Maybe Sirlin was only able to land it on you because you are playing differently against Sirlin because you are giving him more credit. That happens a lot for me. Whenever I play against someone I KNOW is a top player, I tend to overthink things so my mind gets muddled, and I get all nervous and shit so I fall for even basic things that, against other people, I never get hit by.
Excellent question, and I’m honestly not sure of the answer. This is kind of a hard match to rate because it happens very infrequently to me, and I have basically two sources for when it did happen: online play, where I easily beat any Cammy players, and that session at last Evo with Sirlin where we went about 6-4. I’d really like to face more strong Cammy players to see where the trend would go.
Being able to safely vertical jump MP -> thrust kick against headbutts doesn’t really imply being able to thrust kick sweeps (see: un-headbuttable Ken jump kick -> DP, where I’m fairly sure his jump kicks can lose to sweeps). Headbutt has travel time, so the jump MP hitbox could potentially cover the travel space where the headbutt would need to be to hit the vulnerable landing frames (while a sweep would trip you regardless, by just being out of the jump MP range). But… maybe it actually is possible to headbutt between the two, I’d have to try it again. I have been able to do it zero times against Sirlin, though.
I’m pretty sure he wasn’t because when I headbutted as he landed from a jumping MP, he often just blocked it. If you can block, you can thrust kick.
Well, I do get hooligan thrown at times, so I guess it does happen.
I think Cammy can do O.K. against Honda now, maybe not 6-4 O.K., but it seems better for her than in ST. Having safe drills at least gives her something**** she can use. The Cammy player just has to work so much harder.
Which brings me to my question, does anyone think that any match-ups have REALLY changed in HDR as compared to VST? On a whole I think not many have, but I can think of a couple IMO that have (good stuff on Fei vs. Chun the past few pages by the way, made me think of this):
**Hawk vs. Dhalsim **- I’m no expert with either character but it seems that this match was in Sim’s favor in ST, and I’d go as far to say that it is almost in Hawk’s favor now. His new dive really helps him get in easily now. In ST all Sim had to do was block it and get a free RH after. Now the best he can do against it is st.jab. It’s easier for Hawk to get in, and when he is, since Sim has no reversal without Super, it’s throw loop until dead (good luck with teleport, especially with same place glitch still in).
Bison vs. Honda Still a tough match for Dictator, but it’s a lot closer to even than it was in ST. Just nerfing the Ochio and taking out the corner throw loop really helps, now one knockdown near the corner doesn’t equal instant death. His standing jab really helps as well and new Devil Reverse can be used in a limited way to get out of trouble.
That’s one thing I’d like to point out. I think tiers should be judged a bit less based on the play of top players, because there are so few of them. So many people will never reach elite status, and we have to remember that it is more likely that an average Cammy will lose to an average Honda than it is that Sirlin will beat Thelo. But I’m arguing probabilities here. Anyway, let’s sum it up like this: Cammy has a chance to win against Honda, but it is MUCH more likely that she will lose.
For a while I was, yes. My reflexes were just all over the place. Next time I face Thelo I’m going to completely focus on the match and see if I can take my reflexes to the next level. Everything he wrote makes perfect sense, and most of it I already knew. I’m going to incorporate his advice into my next set with him. I’m fairly certain I’ll never demolish Thelo, but I want to at least try to be the player who makes him squirm. Let’s see how I progress…
I think the only way of making it connect is to be VERYYYYYYYY diverse with your setups. As such, I’ve learned new ways to connect into it. Given that my main setup has been cr. lk, I’ve gotten pretty far LOL. I used to think that the cr. mk would keep the opponent in block frame, thus allowing a free Hooligan. Oh, how I learned…
Owwww, gaming Psychology! This used to happen to me too, but I’m no longer phased by a player’s “star status.” I treat all players the same but I’m definitely more careful against elite players.
I honestly think this fight is 6-4 Dhalsim, but Gridman claims its 5-5, so I’ll need to fight SJV for a couple hours for a better opinion. 6-4 is close to truth though.
Since Cammy is the queen of links in this game, diverse setups for the Hooligan Combo shouldn’t be too hard to come up with…especially since most of the links you’d want to use can also end with a Cannon Drill.
If I were to point you to video of this in action, I would suggest any video of Syxx573 playing Cammy. His Hooligan setups and combos are just plain deadly.
Oh…and you can read my FAQ, too. (It’s almost a requirement for me to say that everytime I post, it seems.)
What did I do well, what can I improve in, etc
(It’s almost a requirement for me to say that everytime I post, it seems.)