Dude what shitty ryus and kens are you playing offline that its 5.5-4.5 and 5-5? Claw is 6-4 really AT WORST. In my eyes its even but whatever. Cammys probably 7-3. Fei is 6-4. Easy safe jump. Sagat is not that bad man. Telling you that fat fuck is overrated. Sim is 5-5 cause of new dive now.
Also chun got like hella worse in HDR. So obviously the matchup would be weighed differently then ST. Yeah hawk got shittier too but splash still kills chun li and no chun player can deny that.
Ryu and Ken go down pretty easily after a knock down. Grab after a cross-up with Elbow Bash and you’re golden.
Claw is 7-3. I haven’t fought any really good ones offline, but Blacmore and afro legends both make that fight pretty challenging. Sagat I would say is 7-3 because you can’t keep doing a throw loop in the corner due to his hit box. 7-3 isn’t anything tragic dude. I’m still iffy on the Sim match-up. I need to play SJV more.
As for the whole Chun-li debate, that fight seems close to even too me.
I know you “told” me but i just don’t agree. It’s not a “huge” advantage but here’s no way that matchup is even.
At close quarters it’s 50/50-both characters are pretty formidable up close, but how much of that match is played at close quarters? Half of deejay’s game is his defence, he can turtle back just as well as a good guile if not better, and it’s incredibly hard for bison to break through that sometimes. All of that HAS to factor into the tier list.
Deejay can operate and put pressure on bison from anywhere on the screen, bison can’t do the same. Deejay has lots of options to shut bison down in that matchup, but bison HAS to get close and force mistakes to stand a chance. I’ve seen you turtle down with deejay vs dictator and there are very few options dic can use to get in close without risking an upkick or a jumping jab. You don’t use that shut-out style of play very often but MAN is it effective. Max outs, upkicks, jumping jabs, and slides mean that you can sit at full distance all day with a life lead, control the horizontal space, and i have to do the work to get in and eat block damage and anti air attacks all day in the process. One correctly guessed MK upkick anti-air can lead into a 40-50% damage juggle combo into super on dic, and puts deejay in perfect positioning for all deejay’s usual crossup bullshit.
I guess we’ll have to disagree on this, but i’d love to hear other people’s take on the matchup. I say deejay has a reasonable but not insurmountable advantage, but no way is it even. Bison can definitely win it, but he has to work harder.
6-4 in Deejay’s favour IMO.
Claw is always a shoto’s worse matchup, but DJ is definitely a counter pick. It can be very difficult to get on DJ and his slide/upkicks/MO crap.
i like damdais system
my perspective
-fei vs vega or bison is at 3-7 or worst.
all of fei’s strengths gets overshadowed by these two. vega is just superior to fei long in every way except damage output. hes faster than fei long on the ground, bigger throw range, better reach and better air game.
same with bison, except his air game is a little wonky, but bison has better damage output potential than vega.
vega vs chun, ken and cammy is 6-4 vega. these characters fight vega well but in the end, vega still prevails.
i can’t really explain these matches well, but these 3 characters have some pretty good tools to stop some of vega’s bullshit.
-kens lp dp/chun lightning legs are very good vs vega on the ground while cammys c.mk is also very good vs him
-kens hp dp, cammys hk cannon spike and chuns jump back mk/lk, neutral jump hk are good vs wall dives.
in the end though, vega still out turtles them.
i think t hawk is chuns worst matchup,. she has nothing to get out of the corner. j.lps beats everything she has except maybe a well timed upkick which trades or gets beaten like 90% of the time. dont think she can do much against his splash either. imo, its 7-3.
i’m convinced that ryu, deejay and guile are in the same rank. how is deejay ranked too high?
all 3 of them rapes honda and cammy but matchup wise, deejay has better matches than ryu. he also fights vega much better.
Yeah, Chun got worse, but in what ways that really affect the matchup?
Crappier Air SBK. Actually, It’s kind of weirdly situationally useful if you headstomp Hawk and want to avoid a DP. So, it went from being completely pointless to having a really specific situational use. Still, this is not that important.
Nerfed Super. Okay, but when do you ever hit Hawk with a super as Chun? C.Mk is too important as a zoning tool, and it’s absurdly hard to keep the forward charge while doing multiple C.Mks. Using it as a reversal to get out of a corner tick is about the only situation, and if Chun had enough time to build up her super, Hawk is likely to be at low enough life that the round will be over anyways.
Nerfed Lightning Legs, DF+RH. Well, okay. But who the fuck uses those on Hawk and excepts to not die?
Crappier normal SBK. Actually, this is, in fact the ONE situation in the whole game where her otherwise worse SBK is better. If you tried to SBK out of a tick in ST, you would fly right to Hawk, and he could just jab you out of it, leaving you in the corner. In STHD, you will probably get pegged on the way down, but at least you got out of the corner. Still, this is very situational, and not very important overall.
So, there’s a ton of nerfs Chun got - there’s not denying that she’s worse. However, virtually none of them have a great effect on this matchup. The biggest argument would be the nerfed super damage, but I still think that doesn’t matter too much.
On the other hand, here’s two big things that Hawk lost against Chun:
New Dive. I don’t know enough about the Dive to say which one was better or worse overall…but in this match, R Hawk’s dive is DEFINITELY worse than ST Hawk. In ST, if Hawk landed a dive on Chun, there was a pretty high chance the round was over. Now, it doesn’t knock down, and it doesn’t even put him in a very good position. Hell, I try and hit him out of it now - it’s very easy to beat it clean or get an equal damage trade. It just wasn’t worth the risk in ST. It is now, though.
Whiff animation on 360 throw means Chun isn’t completely boned in the corner anymore. Now, Hawk actually has to play a mind game to get Chun to throw out a reversal at the wrong time, instead of having an option select that guaranteed that she was dead.
Those are two HUGE things that Hawk lost in the match, compared to one very minor nerf and two verrrry inconsequential buffs that Chun got in the match. If you want a good idea of what I’m talking about here, check this video out at 1:20…
[media=youtube]kY8Yp1G9kuM[/media]
That is a perfect example of something that can’t happen in STHD anymore. Hawk landed a clean dive and was able to get in and pressure her afterwards, so the round was over. If Chun did Upkicks, she was automatically knocked down again whether or not Hawk got the throw. If Chun did SBK, she was jabbed out of it and immediately forced back into the situation. Chun can’t be forced into a corner with a clean dive, and the corner trap, while difficult for Chun, is now so much more manageable.
If it was 6-4 Chun in ST (keep in mind that Hawk had the Splash in ST too, which really isn’t that scary for Chun if she knows to either bait it from far range or knows to anti-air it Close S.Mk from close), there is no way it’s 7-3 Hawk now.
Man, WHY does everyone think this?!
Why would hawk even splash from far range? In any match up? Hes only splashing when hes on top of her anyways. You’re trying to tell me chun doesnt use LL against hawk?
Yes, using halves is almost essential. That is an emphatic yes regarding the use of halves for charts or diagrams. Look at how many halves are in the latest Japanese match-up chart for Super Turbo.
5.5-4.5 to me is slight advantage because it’s a difference of 1 point on a 10 point chart.
6-4 is a difference of two. 6 is 150% larger than 4. That’s not slight in my opinion at all.
I’m not demanding people go out of their way to include every match at a half point’s scale. That’s artificial. If someone makes a chart without fractions and they feel comfortable with it then rock on. But to compel people to reduce the accuracy of their charts by rounding numbers is a bit too far.
Hawk would only splash from ‘far’ range if he got baited…If you suspect it, walk back a bit and do neutral J.Hk. Admittedly, it’s less common than just anti-airing it in a conventional way, but what I’m getting at is that there are a crapload of ways to beat splash. Why other Chun players don’t do these things, I’m not entirely sure.
As for Lightning Legs, here’s a challenge for you: Find any match video of a really good Chun player using Lightning Legs in that matchup for anything but a meaty crossup combo (which, if you want to use that as an example, is much easier to pull off now, making that a new advantage Chun has in this match), or to build meter in a rare situation where Hawk can’t do anything to threaten her.
What’s the purpose of Lightning Legs in a match where Hawk just wants to jump in on her anyways? It’s basically enabling him to do that without any worry of repercussion, except maybe a “tactic” where Chun would intentionally take the hit and throw…a pretty terrible idea against Hawk unless you have no choice.
Vega is a given but not Bison. He has a hard time dealing with CW’s when trapped in a corner. The only thing that keeps this match from being so heavily in Fei’s favor is his TOD combo.
It’s a pretty even fight.
6 is 50% larger than 4. Given the 5 categories I listed earlier, would you really classify something as slight-slight instead of slight? For this less than exact science, it’s overkill.
You try and get in on DeeJay? Force him to come to you with fireball spam.
This is the most logical and simple way to evaluate the meaning of numbers, for example while 5-5 is even 8-2 should mean you’re 4x as likely to win assuming you can use your characters advantages as well as your opponent can use his/her’s.
@ sweetjv: I used to think that way until I realized although there is a single number seperating 5-5 and 6-4 if you look at it as the 6 player having 1/3 more of a natural advantage (once again on a roughly even player skill field) against the 4 player then it becomes easier to see why it’s a bit less closer to even then 5.5-4.5.
To make tier listing as organized and concensus based as possible instead of everyone talking simultaenously about everyone else I propose we all concentrate on a single character and don’t talk about any other character’s matchups until we have a majority opinion on him/her. I’m not sure exactly accurate the end result will be but to me a single character focus will yield a more agreeable concensus then a page of how hawk v chun is followed by a page of blanka v ryu and just for the hell of it I say we start alphabetically so balrog aka best character in hdr (imo) is up first.
Ouroboros, Chun is still screwed if she’s knocked down in the corner. THere is no mind game. Safe jump jab-Cr.Jab-Typhoon. Unless she takes both of the jabs to keep her charge, just don’t grab and let her whiff her Up-Kicks.
I do, but I also don’t want to give him an opening for his easy mode cross up and jumping jab.
I prefer the option to select fractions. (+/- .5 is fine with me)
Why?
I LOVE information, and specifically I love access to and conveyance of exact information. (as long as I can handle it)
I would prefer a player designate a matchup as 5.5-4.5 IF that is what they felt it should be at.
While there are 11 possible points of detail on your scale, it’s a bit clunky still.
First off (because of how the scale is calibrated), 4 of the possible 11 outcomes are rarely used. (10-0, 9-1, 1-9, 0-10)
Follow that up with 2 more that are very uncommon. (8-2, 2-8)
So that leaves us with 5.
Then remove 5-5 because it denotes an even match and, therefor, does not provide a way to convey subtleties/degrees of mismatches.
That leaves us with with 4.
Remove half of them, when you are looking at describing a mismatch. (since they convey the exact same degree of information, and simply reflect a variation in the order in which looking at the characters for ranking)
That leaves us with 2. (4-6, 3-7)
So in a situation where two characters are not evenly matched, most players generally make the following call:
Not used:
10-0 = never
9-1 = might get lucky
Conveys no connotation of mismatch:
5-5 = even
Looking at my Character (Dictator), it seems silly to try to cram all his 17 matchups into “even”, “edge”, “beating”, “blowout” WHEN I compare each of those 17 against each other.
And if I DO just use those numbers/categories, then I KNOW I am not communicating the information on how those matchups rank vs. each other in terms of difficulty for me.
Looking at just one matchup using the 4 variety rating isn’t too bad.
But when you have to use that rating to gauge that matchups dificulty vs. other matchups, then you start having issues where matchups of 2 different difficulties have to get crammed into the same rating.
This is why a “5-Star” rating system still see 1/2 Stars used.
(especially when 1, 1.5, 4.5, and 5 are rarely used outside a very generous/casual system; so the 5-Star system often has to define most legit films between 2-4 stars)
Numerical Tiers are pointless in my opinion.
Numbers cannot express a complex opinion.
Same goes for Alphabetical Tiers and similar.
It would be better if people simply said for instance:
Claw vs Blanka is very much in Claw’s favor because xxx
Rather than simply Claw vs Blanka is 7-3 Claw which does not really say all that much.
In the same vein that numerically “counting” matchups to figure out who is Top and who is Low tier is not really any useful information at all.
To be completely honest tier lists by them self do not contain any useful information.
The information you actually want is how the matchup plays.
Why not stop worrying about the numbers and simply focus on discussing how the matchups work on a character to character basis.
Starting with Boxer as was already suggested.
Well said bro. It is just what I said in another post, it comes down to how you use the gray matter between your skull and understanding the matchup.
lol, nice, but this will never happen without numbers being discussed.
A 5 star system with halves is the same as a 10 point system without halves, which is what we have.