The inevitable tier thread

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
1521

I kind of waffle on a few of those numbers. DJ and Guile are two in particular. On the face of it, it certainly seems like Sim has an advantage in those matches. But since he can’t easily punch under their projectiles any more it takes away the one thing he used to rape them with.

Against both of them you have to grind it out by throwing projectiles and getting them to jump and then punishing that jump. Vs DJ, you usually use a slide. Vs Guile it’s usually back + LP/LK. The problem is that it takes several attacks for Sim to equal the damage they do if you screw up once. And if you screw up bad, they combo you for big damage. At that point, they might stay on top of you and finish you off, or just turtle it out.

I hear what you’re saying, and you’re probably right. It’s probably still slightly in Sim’s favor. But when I play against good DJs, like you or Leonowski, it doesn’t feel like Sim still has much of an advantage.

1522

Wow, you feel pretty confident vs Honda. What’s your reasoning for pegging it at 7-3?

1523

Probably because of our last set. :wink:

To be fair I was bit out of practice, I’d put it closer to 6-4 Chun.

1524

I didn’t change it, paraphrasing.

Please note that both of these do not say t hawk is game-breakingly overpowered, you are just not reading what is being said. Maybe you read what you want to see?

1525

Well, if everybody is ready to post matchup charts now:

claw
vs.
Ryu: 6-4
E.Honda: 5-5
Blanka: 6-4
Guile: 6-4
Ken: 5.5-4.5
Chun Li: 6-4
Zangief: 6.5-3.5
Dhalsim: 6-4
T.Hawk: 6.5-3.5
Fei Long: 6-4
Cammy: 5.5-4.5
Dee Jay: 5.5-4.5
boxer: 4.5-5.5
Sagat: 6-4
dictator: 5-5
=86 (+11)

1526

I’m glad I could spark some action on this table. :slight_smile: Nice to know I can have a good idea every now and then…even if I don’t know how to implement it. :stuck_out_tongue:

Is anyone collecting all of this information?

1527

Way to use turbos. All you do is tick throw you flaming hetero. I bet you photoshopped the whole video. :rofl::lovin:

Seriously, though, I’m greatly impressed by your skill. All your empty jump-ins and Rising Hawk setups worked perfectly.

1528

It’s not like this thread is going anywhere. Give people making charts a few more days or so to create new charts or adjust their own charts. After a few more days of people fine tuning their numbers I’ll compile the lists and see what we have. There’s more than just posts in this thread concerning tiers as many people have buried character specific match-up charts within the individual character threads.

1529

For Deejay, 7-3 Vs. Fei Long?

I felt for Fei Long it’s at least 6-4 in Deejays favor. I’m aware Deejay’s cr.MK gives him some problems, but I don’t know.

I think I played you around the beginning of the year on Xbox Live and you certianly tore me a new one :P, I was a scrubby ass Fei player back then (360 Pad and all) and didn’t know that matchup at the time.

I gotta play you again to get even more exposure vs. Deejay.

1530

Vs. Fei you have 6-4 in Chun’s favor? I would consider it 6-4 in Fei’s favor.

Can you give some insight on why you feel Fei has a hard time?

1531

Thank you. That means a lot.

1532

If anyone cares, here’s my matchup chart for Chun. Matchups I don’t have too much experience with are in parenthesis (or rather, not enough quality time with good players), so it’s more of a theoretical estimation. Also, I’ve noted whether or not I think a match got worse, better, or remained the same from ST to STHD.

Ryu - 3.5-6.5 (worse)

This match was already 6-4 Ryu, but now it’s even harder to deal with corner fireball traps.

Ken - 4-6 (worse)

Safer Jab and Strong SRKs, a farther-reaching Fierce SRK, and a more difficult time with corner fireball traps made this one change pretty drastically, in my opinion.

Honda - 6-4 (same)

It’s easier for Honda to get in, but I still don’t think it’s THAT easy. I think there are new things to look for in this match, but I don’t think it got any better or worse for either character in the grand scheme of things.

Blanka - 6-4 (same)

Well, you can’t deal as much super damage anymore, but that’s the only thing that I think is harder for Chun. Nothing Blanka got really helped in this match, so while it’s easier for Blanka, I think the difference is negligible.

Zangief - 7-3 (worse, but not enough so to seriously affect the matchup)

I think the way that Chun zones in this match makes it so that Gief’s changes aren’t that useful. The faster Banishing Punch helps sometimes, but otherwise this matchup hasn’t really moved anywhere I think.

(Guile - 5-5) (worse)

I’m not sure about this one. On one hand, Guile got a lot of good buffs which are practical against Chun-Li; Chun also got a lot of nerfs, but I don’t think they affect this matchup too much. On the other hand, though, I haven’t seen any of Guile’s changes drastically affect this match. I think I need more practice against good Guile players to say for sure, but it’s worse on paper, I guess.

Dhalsim - 6-4 (same)

Chun can’t deal as much damage with her super, and her old Neckbreaker was really good in this match, I think. On the other hand, Dhalsim can’t combo into super anymore, and the noogie trap is much easier to deal with. So, I think this match stayed in the same place.

Balrog - 5.5-4.5 (same)

All in all, both parties got weaker, but not in any way that changes their overall gameplan in this matchup. So, I think this one stayed about the same.

Vega - 6-4 (same)

This one seems like it should be easier for Chun, but as far as I know, she has no good wall dive counters while grounded, so she still has to risk being knocked down every time if she wants to try and stop wall dive spam. I should also note that I’m notoriously TERRIBLE at this matchup, so I’m open to being completely wrong about this.

(Sagat 4-6) (better in some ways, worse in some ways)

I think the dynamic of this match has changed a lot, but it still remains bad for Chun. You can now jump in on Sagat (thank God), but that’s about all that got better. The super deals inconsistent damage to Sagat, and while it’s harder to deal with corner fireball traps from Ryu and Ken, it’s now virtually impossible against a Sagat player that’s paying attention. So, in the end, while I think the way the match plays out is different, Sagat still has the advantage.

Bison - 6-4 (worse, but not enough so to seriously affect the matchup)

I think this is mostly the same (that is, just plain bad for Bison), but Devil’s Reverse is pretty awesome as an escape, and Chun’s Lower priority Lightning Legs allows Bison to hit Chun out of them clean with Psycho Crusher and Scissor Kicks. Granted, it’s not consistent, but it trades/wins a LOT more often, so even if you accidentally do a Psycho Crusher/Scissor Kicks right into Chun’s Lightning Legs, it has a much better chance of working out for Bison, now.

Fei Long: 4-6 (worse)

Fei’s inability to combo off Chicken Wing means that Chun can risk anti-airing him with a ground move now, instead of Neutral J.Lk. On the other hand, Lk Chicken Wing is something that Chun has no really good answer for at close range. Fei can also pressure from farther away, and his super is better while Chun’s deals inconsistent damage to Fei. This isn’t impossible for Chun, but it definitely is one of the biggest changes in matchup dynamic overall for her.

T.Hawk - 6-4 (better in some ways, worse in some ways)

The main point of issue here is the Hawk Dive; it’s no longer scary in the way it was in ST, where being hit by a Hawk Dive meant the round was probably over. On the other hand, it is a better pressure option now that it’s safe, and it’s not incredibly easy for Chun to deal with at close range - the otherwise ideal spot for Chun to be. So, I’d say the match is less stupid, now. I’d still put it in the same spot on a 10-point chart as ST, though.

(Dee Jay - 5-5) (undecided)

This match doesn’t feel any worse…but, it sure sounds worse on paper, so I wonder if I just have yet to meet a Dee Jay that can really show me the full extent of how this match has changed? Chun’s super was a big deal in the match, and it’s weaker now. On top of that, Dee Jay can do his crossup combos easier, and even has a new, easier potential dizzy combo. This match seems like it should be harder for Chun, and yet, I haven’t had a harder time with this match in STHD.

(Cammy: 6-4) (undecided)

I wrote 6-4 Chun, but I don’t know much about this match. I know it was considered 6-4 Chun in ST. I think that the new Backfist doesn’t help much, and the risker Thrust Kick is bad for Cammy. On the other hand, I haven’t played many Cammy players who are awesome with Cannon Drill pressure, so I don’t feel like I have enough information to definitively speak on this matchup.

Overall points: 80 (+5)

1533

jiggly, are you playing on xbl much lately? I want to play against a hawk player. I need more match up experience against a hawk character. the ones I play against are scrubs. I need a higher level player to see what it is I need to work on.

1534

Yeah I totally get what you’re saying.

I gave Dee Jay a 6 against Blanka when it’s probably closer to a 7, but when I play Bluetallcans it certainly doesn’t feel that way.

I think though, that when we make these match up charts that it’s important to remember, that even though it feels like you have to work your ass off, not to let that fool you in thinking that you don’t have the advantage, and that your opponent is probably working his ass off even harder.

Oh no doubt, whatsoever. In fact it might even be closer to 8-2.

Fei really has no options in that match. First, Fei has to get in, which is no easy task against a turtle Dee Jay.

Even if Fei get’s within range to pressure with his rekkas, cr.mk pretty much shuts down everything Fei can do.

Then you thrown in the fact that that one wrong chicken wing and he’s eating two upkicks and is back to full screen again.

Definitely Dee Jay’s best match.

1535

It was brought up earlier and I thought I would clarify a little further as far as remix goes.

The first frame hitting moves blanka balls and ken’s fierce srk, were 50% unblockable in ST during that first frame.

But, in HDR ken’s fierce srk is 25% chance unblockable on the first frame. Dunno about blanka’s.

If you wanna test go into training and play ken cpu dummy. Let him tatsu into fierce srk when he wants too. You will only be able to block it 3 out of 4 times roughly.

1536

I’ll be on next week. I’ve been out of town.

1537

New dive still sucks and grants 0 reward. Again who can punish old dive 100% everytime? Honda (hp headbutt and actually i dont even think so, you can prob block it) Rog (just about everything), claw, walk up cr.mp i think, and blanka maybe (ball?) sim (hk).

T.hawk would be perfect if it was O.hawk with super + slight range boost on dp. Thats it.

1538

I third this.

1539

I like how Damdai’s chart is in the order of the ST char select screen :slight_smile:

1540

I could of course be completely wrong about this… secretly I think zangief chun is actually 8-2 in zangief’s favor, it’s just that Haru Tejyo making it seem like a total zangief win doesn’t jibe with almost every other zangief being a straightforward match.

Overall, I think what many others in this thread have said. I think her nerfs were annoying and undeserved, but her stored super, quality normals, throw damage, and speed still keep her as a strong character. Kind of like Claw… nerfed but still good.

Probably though, you know this, and are looking for something more specific to the honda matchup.

The game for Chun Li is to push Honda backwards. This is generally more important than damage. As the match goes on it’s more in Chun’s favor, because she has the clock on her side (usually), and as supers fill the super favors chun much more.

In order to accomplish this goal, she has several subgames that she can can play. One subgame is: “Try to jump over my fast and slow kikkokens”. This plan can be backed up with an array of strong options:

  • low RH
  • stand strong
  • straight jump short
  • straight jump fierce
  • low forward
  • jump back forward
  • another kikkoken
  • and of course, super

There’s enough variety in these options that Chun Li can really dominate. She can also afford to trade, something I don’t think enough people do. I’m happy to trade, even in my disfavor. It still knocks Honda down and he has to start again.

When Chun Li knocks him down, she can safe jump with jump jab, stand strong, kikkoken. This safe block string pushes Honda back extremely far. 20 seconds of Honda hard work for positional gain can be negated with this. Even if honda jab headbutts, he’s still pushed back.

Another subgame is: “Deal with me jumping back with forward in the corner over and over”. This is a simple strategy that alone is hard for Honda to get around. Chun li is a very hard character to deal damage to if she doesn’t want to get hit. I know that this can be risky, and I know he has some attacks like jump strong that can beat it.

Finally, at any point that Chun Li has meter and is ahead on life (which is often), she can play the game “deal with me jumping back over and over in the corner with forward, except I also throw jab kikkokens backed up with stored super”. Here has all the hard work of both subgames. Any kind of way to get over the kikkokens puts him at risk of eating a super. And if he doesn’t get over them the clock just ticks down.

Honda can definitely win if he gets in, and the whole game can be over in a few seconds, like with Zangief. When I see Chun Lis lose to Honda, I feel it is not their execution that is wrong, but their strategy. I see Chun Lis that try to beat Hondas through damage. I feel the correct strategy is to beat him by position. Her goal is not to do damage, but to push him away.

Here’s a match where I try to implement this strategy (note this has nothing to do with who won here, I’m posting it as an illustration of the strategy from Chun’s point of view)

[media=youtube]t4Z2YZKCdmA&feature=channel_page[/media]

Megaman’s got an amazing Honda, by the way. The first round is incredibly close, but actually I think it serves to illustrate my point. Megaman’s got great execution, making very few mistakes. He repeatedly ochios and capitalizes on every opportunity. And me, I make some big mistakes which should cost me the round, like missing the stored super execution at 0:37. But despite these things that make it clear he’s playing better, it’s still very close. That’s usually an indicator that a matchup is lopsided … when one side is making noticeably more mistakes than the other, but the game is even, it usually means that the side making mistakes has an advantage.

But a chun li like Akishima, who makes NO mistakes… A Honda would have to be guessing right several times in unlikely scenarios and managing to get huge damage each time. (Yes, I am an unabashed akishima barn)

I wish there were videos of Akishima. I was going to say that as far as I know there aren’t any, but then I found there’s some on youtube

[media=youtube]2qYVU8goiEw[/media]

Maybe theres footage of him vs honda players on nico video or something? Does anyone know?

I have to admit that I haven’t played very many Feis, so perhaps this matchup has changed. But it’s a variant of the Honda strategy above. With the stored super, time is on her side, and once she has her super it’s very hard for Fei to get around kikkokens. He’s also less scary than Honda when he gets in. I feel Fei has a hard time with the “I block” game. He’s got a lot of tricky things that can punish you very hard if you do something other than “I block”. He’ll try all sorts of circus tricks to get you to leave block. Like he’ll do a rekka out of range, to tempt you to throw out a leg. Or he’ll do a chicken wing. He’s hoping for you to do something, so he can throw out a flame kick. If he gets that, then he gets a crossup setup, which means trouble.

But if you block, he can make a lot of noise, but there’s really not a whole lot he can do. He can do his overhead, and he can throw, which you tech. It’s not that much damage. You can even eat several throws in a row and it’s not really that bad.

She has a very strong defensive game, and time in on her side.

Of course, I could be completely wrong. I’d be happy to play either of you guys (I don’t know if I’ve had the pleasure yet), and we can get together and play some sets and see if we can find better ways to understand the match!