The inevitable tier thread

you make it sound like daigo did horrible. you know he eliminated NKI right? and he also beat ryan hart. granted he lost to graham wolfe, he is 1 of the best boxers around. i don’t think an unknown would have come out of nowhere to beat his main (ryu), but by some people’s posts, you guys make it sound like he’d be a cakewalk.

since st, hasn’t boxer had an advantage over ryu anyway? i always thought of him as a good counter (along with sim, and claw). maybe the damage settings are different on their attacks and supers, but can anyone note anything in particular where ryu had a bigger disadvantage (moreso) than if this was played on st? as good as daigo is, he isn’t way ahead of the pack when it comes to the top 8 at st, and none of them made it that far by pure luck.

I thought 'Sim was #1? Though I must admit: a well-used Balrog is scarier than anything else! The cheese combined with the fast punches is just crazy, but can’t fireballers still pose a problem?

EDIT: I think Ryu is at the top of the next level of tier. He’s top 5 most likely. He has some of the best zoning in the game, can win any matchup if played right, and that fake fireball is just a HEADACHE. I’m not sure Ryu has a single matchup that is absolutely bad for him, whereas top-tiers like Dhalsim have Cammy and Vega.

Boxer can be zoned hard from the right range, and without super. It also depends on whether the boxer goes out of his way to trade with dash straight.

Most boxers either rush down to build meter, in case they get zoned, or they build meter while being zoned, so they can super through projectiles. Its the super that gets him out of the fireball barrage.

There is no need to make it sound like an easy match for Ryu, remember Graham is one of the best boxers around and guess what another Ryu lost to boxer in the finals.

People should realize that Daigo is not indestructible !

The first match he played (vega VS guile) he was obviously getting confused by Vega’s new wall dive cancel. He really didn’t take any time to ready up on the changes.

I feel Ryu is Top Tier in HDR.

His only bad matchups in ST were: Sim, Boxer, Claw, O.sagat.

Sim was bad because he can drill hadou on reaction. Ryu now has Fake Hadou and sim’s tricks have been nerfed overall.

Boxer was 6-4 in ST and with the nerfs to his headbutt he is alot more manageable which should bring it to 5-5.

Claw was another 6-4 matchup but claw is also very toned down now with both his defense nerfed with removal of stored flipkick and his offense nerfed with no knockdown walldive.
Claw in my opinion has never been a very loopsided matchup for Ryu and now is even more manageable at most 5.5-3.5.

O.Sagat.
O.Sagat was a 3-7.
O.Sagat is gone.

All of his other matchup in ST were already in his favour or equal and i have yet to see any of those change drastically.

Ryu was always very solid and now with arguably no bad matchups i say he is easily top.

I’m not saying its easy, but its proven that Rog without super can be zoned. Its his super that takes away the zoning threat. Its also the fact that Rog can take alot of damage building super, blow through one projectile and he’s got momentum. Other characters can’t neccessarily do that.

Trust me, a good boxer is always a threat, but he does have a weakness to fireballs.

What is claw’s weakness?

Low health.
Fairly low Damage.

Crossups.

Ryu’s doesn’t have any horribly bad match ups in HDR. Boxer is close to 5-5 now, just depends who manages to execute their plan better at the beginning of the round usually. If you can pressure Boxer and get him cornered or full screen, you’re doing well. If you’re cornered, you’re in trouble, which basically makes it 5-5 to me, since neither one of them has a broken advantage over the other.

Let me preface this by saying I’m not a top tier Ryu, so take my opinions with a grain of salt. Ryu’s matchups in HDR look something like this (+ or - 0.5):

vs Honda - 7-3 (+2) - Ryu’s best match up in HDR.
vs Blanka - 6-4 (+1) - Ryu’s match to lose, dp + fireball + cr.mp is good stuff.
vs Guile - 5-5 (0) - Even match, with Guile’s new RH fk, his overhead mix up and still generally annoying like he was in ST.
vs Boxer - 5-5 (0) - whoever executes and guesses correctly usually wins this one.
vs Ken - 5.5 - 4.5 (+0.5) - Ryu still has the advantage, like he did in ST. Better fireballs, knock down Hurricane kick and better super put him ahead of Ken.
vs Chun - 5-5 (0) - In my experience, a 5-5. Choi believes it to be a 6-4 for Ryu in ST, and I imagine since Chun got nerfed, that wouldn’t change. I’m probably just bad at the match up.
vs Gief - 4-6 (-1) - Gief is still trouble for Ryu. He was a bad match up in ST and with the buffs he got, he still retains that quality of being a pest.
vs Dhalsim - 4-6 (-1) - Fake fireball makes this less of a one sided affair. Dhalsim is still ahead in this match up because of better normals, better zoning game and because he can still slide under fireballs. No longer a 3-7 beatdown, thanks to fake fk and nerfed throw range.
vs Sagat - 5-5 (0) - A fair even fight. Before super, Sagat has the advantage. Once Ryu gets his meter full, it’s trickier. All in all, the fight is pretty even.
vs Claw - 4.5-5.5 (-1) - Ryu still has trouble with Vega. While Vega lost the wall dive shenanigans that were hell for everyone, he still has that monstrous st.mk and roll/slide pressure and extremely fast jump ins. Very close to being even, but Ryu has to work significantly harder than Vega to win this.
vs T-Hawk - 5-5 (0) - O. Hawk was always difficult for Ryu in ST. His new dive doesn’t knock down, which makes it generally less scary than it used to. Whether Hawk players like it more or less is irrelevant. From every single Ryu player I have talked to, we are all less scared of Hawk diving since it doesn’t spell immediate doom and gloom. Still a shit match though, because Hawk can still do some nice mixups off his rh grab, as well as really good normals.
vs Fei - 6 - 4 (+1) - Fei still needs to work really hard to close the gap on Ryu. Ryu doesn’t dominate the match, but still has the advantage with fireball pressure. If Fei gets in range, the match flips around, but isn’t completely over for Ryu.
vs Dee Jay - 6 - 4 (+1) - DJ gaining the uppercut to eat Fireballs helps him a little, but Ryu still wins this match if played properly.
vs Cammy - 6-4 (+1) - Ryu can zone Cammy out pretty well. Cammy is great at making you block, but doesn’t necessarily manage to shut Ryu down. One solid dp or red fireball if she manages to get in and it’s back to the grind for Cammy.
vs Dictator - 5.5 - 4.5 (+0.5) - This match used to be way worse for Dictator. Still, Dic has some measure of trouble with Ryu. It could be 5-5, but Ryu has to make a mistake for Dictator to win, which puts it in Ryu’s favor. See Daigo vs NKI at evo. Taira used to rate this a 6.5-3.5 for Ryu, but that was ST. The new DR allows Bison to escape the old fireball trap and some other Ryu pressure.

Which puts him around +4.5. Again, this is personal opinion and completely based on my experience.

I don’t think Ryu has changed that much from ST’s tier list (http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/2008/11/super-turbo-new-arcadia-diagram.html) - his bad matchups aren’t as bad anymore, and his good ones have remained about the same, but at the same time, a lot of the cast seems to have gotten better.

That matchup chart has some very strange choices.

Guile in favor against ryu and blanka ?

I’d go with this one.

8.5-1.5 in the hands of players like Valle & Choi in my opinion.

Seeing (and experiencing first hand) Sirlin’s performance with Fei and Cammy at Evo reaffirms my belief that anyone has a chance in this game. I think it all depends how good you are with your character, and how good you are at reading your opponent.

I play Honda, so I don’t really subscribe to tier lists anyway. :wgrin:

hmmm, so for all guiles upgrades, he hasnt really moved up the tier list, which is understandable as his new moves dont really help his bad match ups specifically with boxer and blanka, guiles only really better with sagat cos of sagats nerfs.

Apart from daigo, were there any other guile players at evo>? mutegi?

I don’t wish to debate this but I just wanna get my opinion out (however, don’t hesitate to respond, I’d like your input). I think some characters really have no chance, such as Fei, Cammy, and so on. Cammy’s one way of getting in on fireballers, the spinning knuckle, can be easily countered just by sweeping right after the FB. That pretty much kills everything. I got perfected by DGV twice because he knew of this. I wish I could’ve recorded that match, it was a slaughter-fest, my worst loss ever. I definitely agree with you to a degree though, because there are some matchups I could see Cammy winning at the tournament level: Balrog, Dhalsim, Vega, Zangief, T-Hawk, Blanka, Bison, and you might get lucky and steal a match from a Ryu, for example. But I think if you have 2 players of equal skill, more often than not the player with the character advantage will win. You’d have to be better than your opponent, but the character flaws tend to limit your options regardless.

Ex. I think you played the Ryu-Choi match @ Devestation as best as humanly possible. And yet you were eating fireballs 90% of the time. Its not your fault, just the fact that Honda has only so many ways of getting around those FB’s.

Doesn’t the Hooligan Combo go over FBs? IMHO, that move is better to use than the Spin Knuckle.

Of course, even better than those moves? Jump. Seriously. You can get much more damage that way. At least with the Hooligan Combo, you can freeze them into blocking and you get a throw that does nice damage.

I’m definitely watching more Cammy video now that Sirlin’s done what he did.

The Hooligan is hard to connect through a FB, and you have to time it so perfectly its insane. That kind of timing I’m not sure any Cammy player could regularly do (I’d love to be proven wrong). I just had 4+ matches with Damdai’s Ken, he sweeped me out every time. :S Care to link to some of those videos? I admire Sirlin greatly for using Cammy at Evo.

Only Kuni, Daigo and Dan represented Japan at Evo, and as far as I know only Kuni/Daigo played HDR.

Also, it’s spelled “Muteki.”

Yeah, it’s easy enough if your opponent is spamming fireballs but pretty hard to use as a predictive attack.

You need to use the other tool Cammy have to break fireball zoning: walking. Cammy walks fast enough to travel half a screen in betwenn two FBs. Use that and you’ll make Ryu play mind games, or they will walk back to the corner.

I disagree completely. Guile can compete much better in HDR. As you already said, his match with sagat is much improved with sagat’s nerfs, but his other bad matches have been as well, with the exception of blanka. Claw’s wall dive not knocking down, coupled with Guile’s buffs and rh fk make the match alot closer. Dhalsim’s inability to cleanly punch under sonic booms, nerfed noogie, and again, the rh fk, make Dhalsim Guile a 6-4 rather than a 7-3. Boxer vs Guile was never really worse than 6-4 at most, and with Rog’s worse headbutts, meter building, and super, its about 5.5-4.5 rog. Maybe even. Guile now has only 2 losing 6-4’s and a 7-3 (blanka). Pretty F’n sweet.

I agree.
The Balrog vs Guile matchup is MUCH harder for a rog player like myself in HDR.