720 command needs to be restored (new command is horrible).
Hawk’s DP has always been awful. Barely clears fireballs, can’t hit anyone unless point blank…meaning you should be throwing anyways. The only time to use the DP was as a reversal, hitting an airborne opponent to knock them down, or to finish a combo.
Hawk’s DP doesn’t need to clear fireballs better because the dive is supposed to be the better anti-FB tool. But not hitting crouching opponents who can spam low kicks all day is insanely pathetic. I would rather see Hawk’s feet hit boxes be shortened slightly than his DP getting a boost.
i’d say chun, it’s annoying that T Hawks jumping jab doesn’t hit a crouching bison, but as long as you just use jumping lk it’s no big deal i guess
and has anyone come up with a rough tier list? or if anyone has an idea of one i’d be curious to see it all laid out not 3 people on top and everyone else under them
Personally, I like the idea behind the new command, but I think the implementation is more the problem. I think the new commands would work out better if they required similar inputs to the old 720 motions, but without jumping. In other words, if the game read for any 10 inputs along the :hcf: motion, I think that would’ve been better. That way, you can pull out the motion whether you’re walking forward (in which case :hcb::hcb: would do) or you’re in a crouch block (in which case the game would read :db::hcf::l::db::d::df:). I’d put a whiff animation on all special move throws (Sorry, Honda. You knew it was coming.) and…of course…all throws have active grabbing frames like Zangief’s to solve Hawk’s whiffing problem.
You mean move his blue boxes back so that their behind the red ones on his normals? I would’ve thought Sirlin would’ve given him this with cr.:lk: or cr.:mk: so that he could out-poke some people, but I guess he knew something we didn’t. Like you said though, I’m all for giving Hawk something that would punish mindlessly holding down-back and mashing :mk:.
The problem isn’t with sagats dp it’s your timing, main sagat and don’t have any problem dp’ing anyone out of the air no matter what jumpin they do as long as I time it right.
Fake fb helps bait drills, buffalos, n walldives but sim, boxer, and to a lesser degree claw, gat, and dictator are ryu’s bad matchups, not to mention guile is now 5-5 with him.
Claw n boxer makeup the toptier, so after them in hightier I would put ryu below sim, gat, and maybe dictator.
Yes, anyone with at least two 3-7 matchups cannot by definition be tops.
if this is the case then it seems i need to seriously work on the timing because i’m god awful at certain moves. For example, DeeJay’s j.HK is very difficult for me to handle. So is T.Hawk’s j.JP? It’s the one where he holds his hands together like he’s praying. Are you taking into account the few frames where his head peaks up right before entering the invincibility frames? If is possible to get out the DP without those frames then I am horrible.
For tall characters to DP certain moves it helps to do the motion, wait a second at DF and then press punch. That way you are ducking and it allows the enemy to fall farther to the ground before your DP comes out.
If you try to do a DP directly from standing what will often happen is that the DP comes out too early and leaves it’s more invulnerable phase before it hits them.
I would like to clarify something about Hawk’s DP.
First of all, its a solid AA like other DP’s IF YOUR OPPONENT IS JUMPING AT YOU. If he is knocked out of it, there will be a trade. Now that we have that that’s cleared up…
Second, Hawk’s Cr.:mk: and Cr.:hk: beat most pokes that the Rising Hawk cannot (I.E. Guile’s Cr.:mk:). With that said though, Guile has more than enough to get up from a Cr.:hk:, and the range on the Cr.:mk: is overshadowed by Guiles, giving him the advantage on that one.
Third, Sirlin is an asshole. Just want too throw that out.
Agree that Boxer/Claw/Sim are still bad matchups, (lBoxer less so now since headbutt shenanigans are less braindead) but where did you get that Sagat/Dictator were bad matchups for Ryu?
N. Sagat had a disadvatage against Ryu in vanilla ST, and some tiger knee tricks are not going to change the matchup that much.
Yes I’ve played atonalism in regular ST and got rocked by Dic, but the matchup has only slightly changed with new devil’s reverse. If that’s the case, most of the matchups charts have the matchup at 6.5 or 7 in Ryu’s favor.
It is not just the knees. His tiger shots have faster recovery (from 5 to 7 frames better, depending on the version), his fierce tiger uppercut is the same from O.Sagat and super has been enhanced. It is not an uphill battle like O.Sagat was, but IMHO it is still not on Ryu’s favor. Pretty winnable, anyway.
Gief was also considered a bad matchup for Ryu by top Japanese players (as bad a matchup as Sagat was an easy one, see link), and it only got worse. In fact, I do not think any good matchup has became even better, but that is a good thing. I’ve always loved fighting Guile, and now it looks (at least closed to) even again.
I also agree that Ryu is not top. First, Sim is just as bad, Claw and Boxer still have an edge, as does Sagat, one bad matchup got worse and all the ones he would dominate are more balanced. He is just a solid character.
And he is Ryu, that is why I play him! Hadoooooouken!
I’m not debating Ryu’s tier position, just OZ’s claim about him having bad matchups with certain chars where other experts say otherwise.
R. Sagat having O. Sagat’s fierce TU is the most useless “addition” ever since N. Sagat’s strong TU was a one hitter and does practically the same damage.
Having N. Sagat’s extended hitbox for the fireball makes it significantly worse since he has to commit to a fb response noticably earlier than O. Sagat, (in addition to the obvious disadvantage of people being to jump from farther out and hit the limb).
Sagat’s super change is good, but IMO not gamechanging
Even though sagat’s fb’s were nerfed they’re still faster then ryu’s so he will win the fb war every time assuming both players input at the same time, I’m surprised you disagree because it’s universally accepted here that sagat has a slight advantage over shotos.
Dictator’s st hk can cleanly stuff fb’s on startup and headstomp it at any time during, and headstomps are also good for punishing dp’s. In the dictator thread everyone agrees shotos are bad against dic so I’m curious to know who these experts who say otherwise are.
I wouldn’t trust SRK threads as most people on here don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about
i.e. daklog, would appear to have a lot of knowledge from his posting, but after owning his ass on GGPO, he couldn’t stop crying about how cheap I was because all I did was throw fireballs
Basic Vanilla ST strategy against Bison goes like this:
Bison has very poor anti-air options other than jump strong, so there are a lot of times you can jump at him and he’s forced to block and you can push him into the corner
There, you simply proceed to pelt him with fireballs from just outside of st. forward/st. rh range as he (prior to HDR) has no reversal other than super, and his jump is very high and floaty, making it prone to get hit by fbs in pre-jump frames and/or getting anti-aired. I have no idea if the invincibility of Devil’s Reverse changes anything, but the strategy was still working on Mavrick the few times I got to play him on HDR.
Does crouching fierce factor into this at all? Normally, if you do it early and make Ryu land on it with, say, a jumping roundhouse, Ryu will get hit. Is there a range where Ryu can beat Bison’s crouching fierce and is there no other anti-air option for Bison at that range?
I agree with the rest of what you’re saying, having been on both sides of this fight and having seen it demonstrated on Sirlin’s SSF2T Beginner Tutorial, but this was the one thing I had a question on.
It’s too bad (or good for the Bison haterzzz) HDR Bison wasn’t given a Head Stomp trajectory similar to Alpha Bison. That would give him a way out of that.
Bison’s cr. fierce does stop Shoto jumps (although the hitbox isn’t as good as after CE from what I’ve read), but it also comes out pretty slow at 9F. Bilskirnir is probably the 2nd best Dic player I’ve played (after Atonalism), but even he was forced to block jump attacks a lot of the time
Invicibility of DR helps out against variety of matchups and situations. Dhalsim’s yoga flame corner trap comes to mind. Specifically against Ryu, it helps against meaty FBs such as fireball traps.
It’s not the most effective tool against Ryu’s wake up game. You can sometimes get away with it, but the problem is that there are so few invincibility frames that you can and will often still get tagged by Ryu’s overhead. You’re better off blocking, and eventually, you get in the corner. It’s a lot of runaway after a knockdown, until you can reset the zoning and get back to st.mk/hk footsies.
Side note: DR even as a reversal will still get owned by Gief or T Hawk’s super. It’s happened I don’t know how many times. I’m in the corner, I get the “Reversal” message, and … yay, Gief super in the face! I’m not sure if that’s because it doesn’t count you as airborne right away, but yeah, DR can still sometimes be punished; it’s not a fix-all solution.
If Hawk get’s Bison in that corner and Bison has no Super, he’s done, plain and simple. Even if Bison does a DR before or after the tick, Hawk can just Fierce DP and send Bison crashing down, and continue his rampage.