I don’t think that’s fair to say, to be honest. Because, truthfully, this game is NOT that different than ST. I mean, we have 14 years of knowledge of ST, so it’s not AS hard to see how changes affect the game. It’s not like Alpha 3, with new Custom Combos that people thought sucked. This is ST. It’s still ST. So venturing guesses to tiers NOW is a lot more valid than with any other game.
Besides, even if you are correct in that tier discussion is pointless right now, it’s just fun.
One thing I’ve noticed, though, is that it’s actually hard to Combo Sonic Boom into Overhead. I’ve gotten DP’ed in between the two TONS of times, even on Meaty Wake-ups. So that’s something to keep in mind about GUile’s Overhead… that if they put a hole in there, you can get a free DP whereas, before, he’d just run away.
All the top tier characters bad matches vs low tier characters got even worse, what with the low tier characters getting buffed and the top tier characters getting barely anything. Can’t say I’m too happy with that change.
I’m not denying there are tiers, of COURSE there’s tiers. But this time around rather than characters feeling handicapped by their normals or specials right out of the gate, it comes more down to just matchup differences, not the ability of the actual character. If that makes sense.
And matchups are not the only way to determine a tier list. It’s the way I prefer, that and tournament rankings but yeah, you can do it strictly attributes such as movesets/priorities/range/etc.
Why don’t we talk about match ups? That should help get a better idea on things.
For one I think Sagat has a big advantage over Fei Long. High tiger shots hit chicken wing, even the short version which I thought was supposed to be invincible to that shit. Fei’s long jump combined with his fat hit box especially leaves him vulnerable to Sagat’s tiger shot/tiger uppercut game and the awkward angles of his air normals makes tiger knee juggles especially dangerous for him. Fei can still win, but I’d say it’s definitely one of his major disadvantage match ups.
Also to people saying Blanka doesn’t lose to anyone, I’d say bison has something of an advantage over him. I’m pretty sure Bison can still punish Blanka Balls with his psycho crusher (at least at certain distances), his invincible jab really helps against ball spam, and each time Blanka jumps in he risks getting J. Mp’d for really good damage. Don’t get me started on what happens when Bison gets a knock down and starts his cross up shenanigans. Maybe it’s just that I’ve only run into scrubs in this match, but I generally win pretty handily with Bison against Blanka.
As far as matchups go, in preliminary testing it seems like Akuma beats Gief like 9-1. Akuma can lock Gief in the corner with jab air fireballs where his air fireballs barely hit Gief’s feet, and Gief can’t do anything about it. If he green hands his way through a fireball, you recover faster than he does, and you get a free combo. Wakeup running bear grab can also get him out, but again, you get a free combo. Not to mention that once Akuma gets super, Zangief can’t press lariat within half a screen of Akuma or else he’s gonna get a demon in his face for free. And because Akuma recovers from his fireball faster than Ryu, footsy games are a lot harder for Zangief than against most characters. And if Akuma gets an opening, forward hurricane kick into dp/hurricane kick knocks Gief like an entire screen’s distance back towards the corner, where Akuma can set up his air fireball trap. It’s like, Akuma is a better Ryu against Zangief, and if he ever gets Gief near the corner, the round is over.
I think Gief is a lot better in most of his matchups, and I think he beats Dictator and especially Boxer pretty handily now, but this is one matchup where his changes don’t really help him. And I don’t think Akuma is this dominant against most characters, although I do think Akuma is really good. Demon has no hitbox at all; I did a demon at the same time my Ryu opponent started roundhouse hurricane kick, and we just pushed up against each other for the whole length of the hurricane kick until he landed and got a demon in his face.
Yeah I can see how gief would have a really hard time with Akuma. I guess the best he can do against the air fireball is drop kick and hope to trade. I still don’t think Akuma is top. He would really have to be just a large cut above the rest of the cast to be top tier despite his stamina. Sure he’s a lot better than I expected. His air fireball is really good and he has good damage/mix up. However, I really don’t see him on the same level as Sagat or even Balrog. He could definitely be high tier though. I think he has a lot of potential.
I could give a fuck less about tiers, and those that pick based only on what tier that fighter may be is a fucking mindless tool, I won CvS2 tournys years ago with N Vega, Kim and Kyo 1,1,2
Just play who you want and what fits your style, I like Vega…he’s just cool looking and I loved his moves as a kid and I still play with him to this day in SF’s.
Yeah my initial post was a bit of a joke, as you could probably tell by the language I used. My main atm is actually Fei Long who is low tier to mid at best. Still like jchen said, it’s just fun to tier people, and I think it helps to compare notes and talk about how characters stack up to each other.
And EVERYTHING relates to everything else in regard to tiers. A character’s tools will directly affect their match-ups which directly affects their tier placement which is a reflection of how effective their tools are.
Right. Because selecting characters based on an analysis of their efficiency and overall options, abilities, and match ups, is mindless. Picking a character based on a feeling or because you like the way they look, yeah, that’s intellectual.
I think the game is looking extremely well balanced. No character is sticking out looking like someone I should choose to get some easy wins. Honestly I have no clue what the final tier list will look like.
I think the tiers in this game are very compressed just running off of what we know now. Some characters seem better than others, but time will tell. Hell, Sagat still seems extremely powerful even without the fireball game. His damage is insane. For fucks sakes he can TOD you(j.HK> s.HK > tiger shot for dizzy, then crossup j.MK > c.MP > c. MK > TK > TK) without using a crossup to start it…which I believe in the past only Dictator could do. Even with that, he has a small jump, so he has to work for it. Everyone feels very strong. If I decide to play Blanka against Sagat, I feel like I can win now. Sirlin did a great job as far as I’m concerned, but we’ll see as more thing are discovered.
Oh, and as far as Akuma goes…he’s strong. Really strong. He’s going to be in at LEAST the same tier as Ryu. His Hadouken is flat out better than Ryu’s, which is Ryu’s main game. His Shoryuken is invincible. His air hadouken locks some characters down like no tomorrow. His super is 100% invincible(if you don’t believe me, go turn the hitboxes on and look at that shit), and you can kara it. Yes, you can jump out at any time, but doing in practice and doing in theory are VERY different. Plus, he does INSANE damage. His simple j.HK > c.MK > fp Hadouken does a shitload of damage AND knocks down, leading to more air Hadouken shennanigans. If you’re not in the corner, j.HK > c. MK > MK Tatsu > HP Shoryuken does 50%, and j.HP > s. HP > HK Tatsu >HP Shoryjuken does 80%. Don’t discount Akuma. Despite his low stamina, he’s extremely powerful and NEEDS the low stamina to be balanced…because frankly if they get in on you they deserve to beat you.
I get really worried about how Fei will end up tier wise. It feels like the fei player would have to be a better player than his opponent overall to win certain matches. Makes me wonder why Sirlin felt like the old chicken wing into close fierce needed to be taken out. The chicken wings feel almost useless now outside of a fancy overhead and the juggle property.
Don’t even bother with air fireball for now, then. Just use his best-in-the game ground fireball games. Yes, best in the game, even better than Ryu with super. Not only does Akuma have better recovery than Ryu on his fireballs, but if Ryu and Akuma have super, Ryu needs to be at least as afraid that Akuma will throw out demon as Akuma does about Ryu throwing out super fireball because demon moves about as fast and goes directly through anything, including a super fireball. And if someone tries to jump over your fireball, don’t forget to use your fully invincible juggling dragon punches to take off a third of their life (and set up some air fireball shenanigans against most characters).
It’s not that I don’t think Ken is good, I think he’s a good character, I just don’t think he’s top tier material. I think he largely has trouble in the same matchups where he had trouble before and for the same reasons, and I also think that he got worse against the characters he beat because the characters he beat are mostly the mid and low tier characters who now got better targeted tools to help them in matchups like Ken’s. Again, I could see him being mid tier, but I think top tier is past his ceiling.
And I think Gief got considerably better. I think he legitimately beats characters like Ryu and Ken and Dictator that he went evenish with before and I think he kills Boxer now. I think he’s better in some of his biggest problem matchups because he now actually has ways around good low attacks like Guile’s and Cammy’s crouching forward, Fei’s crouching fierce and strong, Blanka’s slide, and Honda’s toward+roundhouse. Honda’s more vulnerable slaps also makes that a more reasonable matchup, and Fei’s crappier chicken wing now means that there are ranges and strengths where he just can’t do or shouldn’t risk doing it and the loop is gone completely. I still think Gief has problems with Cammy, Honda, Sagat, Claw, Sim, and Blanka, but I he’s definitely at least somewhat better in all of his matchups and a lot better in quite a few.
Yeah, I agree. Give Fei back his old chicken wing, or at least give him slightly better frame advantage on block (and make his jab start up one frame slower or whatever to ensure that it can’t link out of chicken wing), and I don’t think I’d be talking about Fei as low tier.
