For Fei Long vs Sagat, I remember Sirlin thinking that Fei Long has advantage. It sounds like a fairly rare matchup, though.
Tell that to SFIV players. Sagat is the best character in that game, and there are no top tier Sagat players in America. I’m just thinking that Sagat is really unpopular for some reason. Maybe people are sick of him after VST and CvS2. 
It IS odd that no one has decided to pick him up seriously in HDR, at least, none of the really well known players who post here on these Forums a lot.
NKI dropping Chun is NOT an indication that she got nerfed. While NKI dropping Chun IS true, largely I think it has more to do with just no longer being familiar anymore. I can’t use Cammy for that reason, but she’s UNDOUBTEDLY better than she was before. But she plays nothing like she used to. It’s the same reason why Choi actually doesn’t use Sagat anymore, because he’s changed too much (particularly the loss of far Stand Short into Tiger Shot). For the characters that have changed fundamentally, such as Chun, Cammy, Sagat, and Fei Long, a lot of them were dropped by players who used them extensively in VST. Characters like Dhalsim and Honda and Ryu and Bison, who did not change fundamentally at all, were maintained by former users at a much higher rate.
I would think this is due to the fact that Short Chicken Wing can probably tag Sagat’s Fireballs from really far ranges, thanks to the easier-to-hit arms of Sagat’s Fireballs. Short Chicken Wing from a distance at which it’ll whiff Sagat will still hit if Sagat throws a Fireball, making it less likely to put yourself in harm’s way when doing a random Short Chicken Wing from afar.
- James
There is one reason why DJ v. Sagat is no longer in sagat’s favor and that is because of the extended hitbox on his arms.
Even in VST O. Sagat was not nearly as hard to get in on as it is against Ryu, because DJ can upkick over/through low fire balls and slide under high ones. Both upkicks and slide not only get around fireballs while advancing DJ forward, they also allow DJ to retain his charge.
So we have a match that is already not easy for sagat, not lets give him worse recovery on his fireballs and extend the hitbox on his arms which allow DJ to punish fireballs with j. rh from damn near full screen, and you see why this match is no longer in sagats favor.
Sure, R. Sagat now has a better close up game with his improved tiger knees and super, but unless you got a throw loop, DJ don’t give a fuck about your close up game, seriously.
Now I’m thinking I was generous with the 5-5 rating. I guess it was because I haven’t played the numerous amount of matches you need for experience against R. Sagat. I’m basically going off of O. Sagat experience, and the fact that against DJ, Sagat’s zoning really got nerfed. So unless someone comes up with some shit with Sagat’s close up game that makes it scary, I gotta say this match is in DJ’s favor now.
I’m changing my rating to 6-4 DJ.
Also I’m chaging DJ v. Ryu to 7-3 Ryu, and DJ v. Dic to 5-5.
I was fooling myself that the Ryu matchup wasn’t that bad, and against Bison the more I think about that match the more it is basically a coin flip.
sorry to change the subject, but i still think vega/honda is in vega’s favor.
only because dhalsim/honda is the same matchup # in most charts and i know vega is at least twice as hard as sim for honda(at least with the vegas and dhalsims i play).
Well, you could ask the very top US player (those who place high in big tournaments) individually why they don’t use Sagat.
Very well said!
Most of them just say he’s boring. They say when they see top players in Japan, like Mago, play Sagat, their claim is that he doesn’t really do much… just wait and punish.
Everyone that I see that is decent with Sagat here in the U.S. always tells me they don’t like using him. I really have no idea what it is.
Bruce: What makes Ryu vs. DJ so bad now? I always thought DJ was good against Ryu in VST, at least fairly even. The only change, really, was the Fake Fireball. Has it affected the match-up that much?
- James
Fake Fireball has made the match up worse most definitely. But that match was not even in any way in VST. Ryu clearly had the advantage.
It is such a pain to get in on Ryu, especially at just outside sweep range because of the need to charge, you block one fireball and you’re right back out again.
Then you add in the fact that Dee Jay’s walk speed is as slow as T. Hawk, except when Dee Jay finally gets in he doesn’t have a near insta-win tick throw game. So that means you have to be absolutely perfect with your mix-up?s because one dp and Ryu is out of the corner or pushing Dee Jay back to full screen.
On top of all of that Ryu’s close up game is actually very deadly when he has super. So Dee Jay can’t be as agressive when Ryu has super, which is pretty much all the time. Also he really can’t do anything against crossup hurricane kicks besides block, which gives Ryu so many setups afterward.
So now you take all that and you give Ryu a Fake Fireball, which I guess he needed because apparently other characters got new ways around fireballs.
That’s great, except Dee Jay didn’t get anything but a projectile nullifying Machine Gun Upper, which pretty much does not work at all in practice.
Especially when he doesn’t even throw one. 
So are you implying that we have new bullshit in HDR that we didn’t have in ST?
Although it does feel like its really hard to jump at ryu, with anybody now that he has that fake. Except for maybe claw.
So would I not neccessarily because Wong isn’t as good but because Damdai seems to have a deeper understanding of st’s (and by extension) hdr’s nuances while Wong relies more on hs natural skill.
I’m pretty sure sagat can build meter faster then DJ, and once again you make the assumption that the non sagat player is doing everything perfectly while the sagat player is messing up. Using this logic makes your arguement invalid because in the same vein I could say sagat will fb all of DJ’s slide and dp all his jumpins (which isn’t hard.) Of course smart play by anyone against anyone else will result in a net gain in damage output lol the same exact thing could be said of sagat so to say it is pointless.
Sagat wins all fb wars so the longer it goes on the more control he has in this aspect forcing ryu to be the one who has to commit to a jumpin or some other kind of trick (tatsu into dp, fake, fierce rush, etc) in order to get the advantage. You need to understand ryu and sagat play very similarly the major difference being sagat relies MUCH more heavily on psychic dp’s and guessing correctly on fb pressure consistently while ryu doesn’t have that luxury. However to compensate ryu does have an impressive set of tools to help him in any situation most notably super, sagat has a slight advantage over ryu until ryu gets super then ryu has the advantage because one wrongly timed fb from sagat and he eats super 50%.
Like Wong said in game informer this month “sagat is the best but he didn’t make a showing at top8” and like I said before Wong and Valle are beasts with sagat however Wong doesn’t play hdr too much and Valle rarely picks sagat for the reasons you stated as usual Chen you have the answers. I never thought about the fundamental shift I just focused onthe cosmetic changes:sweat:
Since dic’s playstyle is the same would it be fair to say Valle switched from sagat to him because he believes he’s a contendor? I can’t think of why else he would.
To say lk cw can tag ryu from really far ranges may be a bitof an overstatement but yeah it’s definitely something to look out for with his new arm hitbox. My sagat was easily beaten to a pulp by Sirlin (not just because his fei is amazing but also me being nervous which reminds me Valle was right on the money about that being a true test of skill) however I initially chose him primarily because tk cleanly stuffs wing which is a big factor in this matchup.
I never got to play you at evo:sad:
Like I said before as I was typing I remembered how deadly jrh can be for sagat however, just as you can slide under high gb’s and upkick through low ones all I have todo is the opposite and you’re in an uphill battle.
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Apoc has made several detailed posts about why the matchup is 5-5 (in st) and I forgot his name but one of the better well known honda players he regularly used to play agreed with him.
vega vs sagat is 5-5 imo due to damage disparity. his tiger uppercut does like what? 25 to 30%? its much easier to catch walldives with the tiger uppercut compared to other command anti airs due to the huge arc. jumping hk is really good vs vega too since he has no good answer to it outside of a flip kick.
on the other hand, vega has all the tools to keep sagat in check. overall though, i think vega wins in the end simply because vega dictates the flow of the match.
sagat is boring as shit like in pretty much every game. hes slow as fuck and you need to be able to dp on reaction to be any good with him.
about fei vs sagat, his lk chickenwing kick does not go thru low tiger shots.
Eh?
I go through them all the time. :xeye:
Hell if done very late, you can go through low tiger shot with HK CW.
Do you mean High Tiger shots?
yeah i think its the high tiger shots. it’s been a while but i know the chickenwing kick doesnt go thru one of the tiger shots.
In my experience Dhalsim vs Honda is VERY different offline than it is online. Dhalsim can stand his ground in the match, but ONLY if he can counter all of Honda’s specials on reaction with precisely timed normals. This is one of the few matches that plays entirely differently offline than it does online to me.
zoolander: if everyone thinks honda/vega is even, why does everyone have it at 6-4 honda when they make MU numbers?
just wondering why.
ive asked how honda wins and everyone says get in the corner and stay there or you lose(sounds like vega has the advantage if honda HAS to do something like that to win the match).
ok, well once you get in the corner, vega can still screw up your back charge(not sure if thats why you get in the corner, but i cant fvcking headbutt, ha!).
i dont see it.
honestly, i have a harder time fighting vega than guile or deejay sometimes(vids anyone?).
It has to be done late. When fei uses CW he’s invincible for so many frames and then this rectangular blue hitbox above him to the left(P1 side, box is oriented long side vertical) appears for a few frames and then he jumps into the air and can hit. If the high tigers are hitting you, then it’s being done too soon.
That said, the box is higher than all of the other projectiles, so if fei uses CW’s invulnerablity on the others, the projectiles will pass under that box. Not sure about the MO since its higher.
EDIT: ^^^^ LK CW
Agreed.
Apparently offline didn’t help Jason Cole (arguably the best Sim in the US) at evo against Thelo 
Does the game feel slower/faster offline than it does online?
Sometimes it doesn’t feel like it’s faster or slower. It just feel like I’m playing with a strobe light on.
Speaking of which, I got thrown out of scissor kick the other night. Twice. Awesome.
In my experience, speed 3 offline is just a tad slower than online. Which is why I prefer speed 4 offline. But other than that, the biggest difference is reaction time. Online I was always getting tagged by Overheads, but offline I can see them coming a mile away and am able to always block high, among other things.