hmm And correct me if I’m wrong. But when Akuma goes all out against a foe he becomes Shin Akuma right? So Gouken can match Akuma even in shin mode? Because I have to admit I’ve always doubted Gouken. But it sounds like Gouken may be among Street Fighter’s top tiers.
I’m not quite sure WHAT Shin Akuma is honestly. Akuma’s dialogue becomes more savage and aggressive from that form, so it could be an early stage of the process that creates Oni. Shin Akuma in CvS2 comes from a fusion between Rugal and Akuma, so he may not normally be able to tap into that state.
How exactly Akuma handicaps himself isn’t as clear as Oro and Cody, either.
“Shin” Akuma is just Akuma using the full potential of his techniques, because Akuma is always limiting himself. He becomes more aggressive due to him tapping into SnH the more unrestrained he becomes. Imo, I see Shin Akuma as Akuma who has unlimited access to EX specials, similar to how Oro’s EX Supers requires the use of his second arm.
I always thought the best example of this was Akuma’s Zankuu Gohado. Shin Akuma will throw two fireballs to Akuma’s one, but Akuma will always do the hand motions for two fireballs.
This has been the case in every version he has appeared in.
http://i.imgur.com/ScGtyiC.jpg
Akuma handicaps himself by not following through with the proper technique in his attacks, thus lowering the potency.
I’m a big Akuma fan, but I do consider Gouken to be better than Akuma. The only handicap Gouken has, is that he refuses to kill.
If we’re equating gameplay and storyline, Gouken also has a Shin/Boss version. Hadokens that hit twice, fully charged Denjin Hadoken, Shin Shoryuken that can do ~70% damage with full Ultra gauge, super fast and armoured Senkugoshoha etc.
As of SF4, I would say Gouken is stronger than Akuma. Since their last encounter just before or during SF1, Gouken has honed his ‘power of nothingness’ better and this surprises Akuma when they have their second encounter in SF4. Gouken was able to counter Akuma’s strongest move with his back turned if you remember. Akuma then challenges Gouken to a death match, the winner lives and claims Ryu’s life. This battle took place off-screen but we see the results of it.
Gouken is alive. Ryu is alive, and Akuma is alive. The 2 most logical scenarios that lead to this result are that either that fight did not happen or that it did, and Gouken was the winner. Only Gouken would spare the life of his opponent. Akuma would never spare Gouken’s life if he had won. Also Ryu is free of the SNH which lends itself to the idea that Gouken beat Akuma. Gen’s ending also confirms that this fight did take place as he senses their clashing chis. (So really it’s actually 2-1 in favor of Gouken now that I think about it)
This sets Akuma off obviously to go back into training, harder, and deeper into the SNH as we saw in his SSF4 ending and subsequently SF3. He’s trying to craft new and stronger moves since his most powerful tool was just rendered obsolete by the one man he has something to prove to.
Akuma’s handicap only exists for gameplay reasons by the way. In the canon, Akuma goes into a fight with everything at the ready, he goes in to kill or be killed - Or he refuses the fight. He is always Shin Akuma. Oni is someone else.
EDIT- Didn’t realize @just5moreminutes answered you already, and so thoroughly might I add. Well done!
Is that so? Well, Shin Akuma V-Trigger here we come. Since you build VT by getting hit, it actually works well with him deciding to unleash his full power once he feels you’re worthy.
Wait a minute…
Will Akuma be the Season 2 Big Bad?
Well I always imagined Akuma’s V-trigger to be similar to Bison’s and Necalli’s, so I am hoping he gets the shin treatment for VT as well. I also doubt Akuma will come anytime before Season 3. They want to preserve his exclusivity to Tekken as long as possible.
Meh, ground hadoukens require the motion of two hands to create the fireball, probably doing it in air requires it so albeit in a different way. Remember all this feng shui mumbo jumbo around martial arts where probably one hand represents the yin and the other the yang or whatever and setting both in motion unleashes some powerful energy or something.
Gouken can fire Hadoken with one hand, and Dan attempts to, so we know that if someone is skilled they don’t necessarily need two. Also, doing a fireball in midair can be used with the same motion as on the ground. We see this in Oni’s air Meido GoHado. The single handed Hadokens are customized versions Akuma and Gouken have come up with on their own.
The traditional stance for Hadoken is always done with both hands, I like to call the traditional stance; Hado no Kamae (波動の構え Hadou no Kamae, “Stance of the Surge”). We see that when using highly skilled techniques like Medio, Denjin Hadoken, or even Haoh Gadoken, the users require use of both arms for a technique that is more powerful than their single handed counterpart. This is because the Hado no Kamae allows the user to gather ki more directly from the Tanden (the body’s ki center) before firing.
Notice how that the first frames of the Hadoken has always had the users position their palms directly over their core. Similar to the form Seth uses to gather ki to use for his Tanden Engine. It has been portrayed this way in artwork as well and this is by no coincidence. This is because the form itself is rooted and tied to Qigong histories. So while yes it has something to do with yin and yang and using both arms, it goes beyond that generalization.
http://i.imgur.com/uQIkTqq.jpg
So what does it say about characters that can throw one handed fireballs versus 2 handed? Metaphysically speaking. One handed > Two Handed?
With Gouken and Akuma I’d say it means that they broke the balance of Yin and Yang and became closer to one or the other
Hmm. Gouken and Akuma’s “relationship”/ rivalry is really interesting and a polar opposite to that of Ryu and Ken’s. I think Gouken should come back in some way and that him and Akuma should continue their epic rivalry. Like I find it really fasinating and sad. Because from what I saw in that anime or whatever where Gouken and Akuma where training under Gotetsu. He and Akuma had a good relationship. So imagine how Gouken feels seeing his brother slowly lose his humanity and go off the deep end like this? Even go as far as killing their master and attempting to kill him.
Imagine if Ryu did give in the the SNH and had the match with Akuma and took him down? Then he’d take the beads and it’d be like Gouken and Akuma’s rivalry being passed down to Ryu and Ken. With Ryu seeking out a fight to the end with Ken.
There’s nothing really metaphysical, its just a testament of skill and progression of the technique. Nash developed the Sonic Boom, he is shown as being able to throw them single handily. This makes him more proficient than Guile in its general use. Goken and Akuma are the most proficient Hado users, thus they are able to throw a Hadoken with one hand. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the single handed variants trump their double handed counterparts, it’s just reflective of the users skill handling the technique. It’s like saying which is better, driving one handed or with two? Depending on who you are the answers could be different, but novice drivers are usually taught to keep both hands on the wheel for the best possible control.
Take Chun for example, as she’s the best example of a character we have actually seen grow in display of skills. Her Kikoken functions much like a Hadoken, in a sense that both gather ki from the Tanden and fire it in specific ways. We can see this process best in the SFA version of her Kikoken and Kikosho.
In SF3 Chun’s animations were slightly updated to reflect her maturity and progression in her fighting skills. Her SF3 Kikoken/ Kikosho has her start by creating the the ball of ki in a similar form that mimics her Alpha counter part, but she has been stylized to throw Kikoken out with one hand as opposed to two.
But let’s be aware that some techniques require so much skill and focus that the fighter must both hands, or lose general effectiveness or control of the technique. I feel this is usually the case with the Super techniques.
Wow so much talk in so little time!
One thing to consider with throwing fireballs one handed is the control required. Two hands allows one to cup chi and direct its flow like moving clay. Try shaping moving clay with one hand and you’re likely to have a mess because as you push in one direction it expands in the other. It resists the change…sort of like cupping water. Keep in mind the notion of “wave motion”. The Hadoken is a wave of chi but that chi has to be shaped into a proper sphere before throwing it. What happens if you don’t do that right? A god example is Sakura and Dan (in decreasing levels of skill).
Dan tries to throw one handed like Gouken and the fireball dissipates almost immediately because it is improperly formed. Sakura uses both hands and is FAR better than Dan but her energy also dissipates early.
Now compare to Ryu or Ken. They cup their hands and pour chi into the space between, holding the posture to maintain control. Gouken is so talented and so skillful, he can direct his chi flow that much better than them and only use one hand to the extent that he can even super-charge his hadoken into the 2-hit variant. That is some SERIOUS control.
Some might imagine that makes him stronger or better at chi-control than Akuma, but I could put forth that that is not necessarily true. Gouken is using a totally different chi drawing technique than Akuma. SnH most likely just requires that much more control to form. Basically…his spinning wheel has to move faster. Or his water pressure is higher. However you want to look at it. SnH chi is more volatile, more wild, more fierce…so Akuma uses 2 hands for his hadoken…and, even then, he can throw one handed as well like when he throws hadokens in the air.
Interestingly enough, however, notice something about Oni’s one-handed SnH hadokens. They dissipate early. Weird, no? But it makes perfect sense if Oni is sloppily throwing casual, powerful bundles of half-formed SnH chi-fueled hadokens. The refinement just isn’t there. When he DOES put his all into the technique, however, that’s how you get his absolutely insanely destructive Meido Gohado. Otherwise, apparently Oni can’t be bothered…which makes sense for his nature.
As for who is stronger between Gouken and Akuma? Gouken is. His martial arts form is innately stronger than Akuma’s so, even if they were equal in all other regards, Gouken would be stronger. Think of it like 2 precision vehicles that are totally identical…except one uses a higher quality fuel. The only “advantage” Akuma has is that Gouken will not kill him…so Akuma basically has infinite quarters to pop in against Gouken whenever he wants and the gap between them is small enough that Akuma absolutely CAN win if things go his way. It’s just difficult because Mu is an impenetrable wall for Akuma…unless, of course, he learns to fight it like Kaioh did in HnK by disrupting the very cosmos with his abhorrent chi. To be fair, however, I’d rather see Bison do that because, honestly, I see Bison with far more in common with Kaioh and it’d be an awesome reinforcement of my “Bison is basically a Cthulhu-monster in human form” approach to the character 
Fuck, I wanna see Ryu bodying fools with Denjin Hadokens while only using one hand to fire them
Meanwhile, the pimpest badass ever is like…
“Hadoken? That’s so cute…”
That’s cute though…
Not enough? How about two… At the same time!
.
Kaiser Wave…pfffft
Something that always intrigued me about Bison in SFEX was that he could make copies of himself. He never showed the ability in canon, but it made me wonder if that could be something he could accomplish, like a “Psycho Clone” so to speak.
I think it follows the logic of the Soul Illusion, A Psycho Illusion so to speak. Except Bison is so powerful, that his illusions don’t just hit you. This ability also appeared in the MvC series IIRC.
You guys need to learn to put big pictures under spoilers