Mood - seriously. Please stop bringing the validity of items discussion in here. It has ZERO place here.
I never said he was. Just that he was trying to push the discussion towards the validity when that is not the point of this thread. The thread has already established that it is with the implication that “yes, items are in”, so discussing the validity is counterproductive and derailing the thread. Please. Stop.
This is the items thread. How does it not have a place in the items thread?
So Bayonetta isn’t the only thing Smash players refuse to learn how to deal with, huh?
I cannot stress this enough.
Please read it again and understand what i am asking.
I want a legitimate answer thats more than adapting because that gets no where. Cynt has provided it. I dont think anyone else can. So im going to wait until an answer does
There are like 1,000,000,0000 x infinity places to talk about why you hate items.
I thought this was the one place where people could actually discuss item use/spawning/strategy without the usual bullshit.
You’re asking for something that is about your own validation towards why items are “dumb” and “have no place”. That is EXACTLY what I said to keep out of this thread. Please. Drop it. Stop derailing the thread. Take it to the main thread. Hell, go make your own for all I fuckin’ care. Just keep it out of here, where it’s meant to be a discussion about items in play, not whether they BELONG in play.
This a thousand times over.
Still avoiding the question. You are not providing an answer to what i asked in the paste bin. So ill just put it here with the scenario:
In my tournament match against manie there was a specific scenario. He was bayo, i was cloud. He’s at 120%, i was at 100%, i did not have my limit charge. He whiffed an fsmash pretty close to me. Why should i have not gone for the fsmash KO?
In the actual match, we both exploded and died. But ignore this part and just answer the question. Dont avoid it. Answer it as specifically as possible.
I hate items in the competitive way, if it’s just for fun, fuck it let them rock (besides gusting bellows)
I’ll be glad to answer. Hell, I’d be happy for anyone else to answer in favor or against.
JUST
NOT
HERE
It’s the item thread, we should keep it in the item thread.
Also, as proven by that pastebin, you cant answer it. Which is why I’m asking for others.
No.
This is NOT the “item validity” thread. Read the fucking OP. You come in here and post, you do so knowing that “items are here”. By coming in here and trying to argue the justification of items, you are sullying and derailing this thread.
I moved it to the main thread, happy?
Mood’s whole issue is with an explosive randomly dropping. As I recall, when items were a format before explosives were generally turned off (and the League match was rank 4, when tournies would probably run rank 2 or 3). Main reason they vanished entirely was because explosive crates couldn’t be turned off. Now they can be turned off along with other explosives. Which erases the scenario Mood is whining about.
Items are fine as their own format, really the issue is which items to have in this kind of setting, which the OP already has different levels to have (rank 4 and 5 being the equivalent of “Uber,” rank 3 “OU,” so on and so forth). As Cyntalan has stated, the discussion shouldn’t be whether or not items should be a format, but rather which items should be ranked accordingly for a competitive setting.
(I’d contribute more to said discussion but honestly I don’t really have anything to say for or against the current ranking of each item in the OP)
We have a winner
The only reason i should not have gone for the punish is because explosives were on. And now you understand why i was having a problem with your answer cynt?
a) In Smash it is always the characters that can be where they want when they want that matter. Add items and where they want becomes at the next item. If that item is battering and they put you off stage in tumble or hitstun you are eating a battering item to the face. No risks. It’s not so clear cut but it really just makes the good characters better.
b) I was just giving thoughts off the top of my head, I didn’t reference the chart.
Speed helps so much in item obtainment, of course faster means your chances of grabbing things goes up. You only need to focus on your attention on positioning and defense if you’re going for the goodies, stall like mad and pick things up. I have played with items, it’s a legit strategy especially as Sonic.
I never in that post just said “ban items”, I was going with the discussion of “if items than no X” you don’t have to repeat yourself mom and you’re not my mom so cool it boss.
My bad - I think I mixed it with your previous post which WAS kinda like that. The power items are in a good place, IMO. You’d have to be playing in high-stakes matches to consider it, and IMO, you’re hitting a point where the focus shifts from the healthy balance of items and players to being almost entirely about the items, regardless of spawn rate.
As for the battering item off stage thing… I’m trying to imagine a scenario where all that can happen at the same time. An item would have to a) spawn as you’ve been knocked off, b) been knocked off with an attack that did a large deal of stun, c) can be chucked at you before you stop tumbling and can airdodge/catch, and d) be enough to cause you to die where it otherwise would not have.
Ill say this. You cant discuss the ranking of items without the validity of them. They have to go hand in hand. While i may have been loud and obnoxious is was trying to make a point that you werent answering and kept avoiding. Items change the metagame and different items bring different things. But you knew that already, so why couldn’t you answer it clearly.
Do i think items should be banned in competitive play? Yes because it adds an uncontrollable rng element to a fighting game. But, even though this is the item thread, we cant discuss it. Only the ranks.
You’re rankings are kind of all over the place looking at it. Each rank is a different metagame and should mostly reflect as such. Honestly, the smogon pokemon tiering bs does work here. Each tier is different because of how strong everything is. It’s gonna play a bit backwards here but i think you get my point.
Now, my scenario above only plays out with explosives turned on, which is clearly why we cant have those rank 1. I think we should relook at the rankings entirely to see what you want. My proposal for the rankings:
Rank 0
No items, doesnt change anything anyone does or how they play. Move along.
Rank 1: Fire flower, mr. Freezie, mr. Saturn, grass, smoke ball, sandbag, banana peel
These items do very little in changing standard play. They add elements but nothing so drastic that completely invalidates some strategies.
Rank 2: food, bunny hood, super scope, pitfall, hothead, green shell, bumper, spring, unira, soccer ball, pow block, spiny shell, boomerang, beehive, killer eye, screw attack, super leaf, rocket belt
This is the bulk of item gameplay. These add elements that were not present in ranks 1. Most are easily avoidable and dont disrupt regular gameplay too much. Much stronger than rank 1 items.
Rank 3: superspicy curry, warp star, beam sword, lips stick, star rod, fire bar, ray gun, steel diver, drill, gooey bomb, deku nut, team healer, boss galaga
Stronger items for play. Shit starts to get a bit hectic but nothing crazy yet. These mostly amplify character weakness like range, knockback, and projectile. No unneccessary shitting your pants yet.
Rank 4: smash ball, assist trophy, pokeball, master ball, dragoon parts, daybreak parts, containers, blastbox, bullet bill, ore club, hammer, home run bat, golden hammer, bomb omb, motion sensor bomb, smart bomb, bombchu, x bomb, hocotate bomb, beetle, cucco
Shit is now crazy. These are all crazy strong in the KO/disruptive department. Shits bout to go down. Think about your next move or you might die
Rank 5: super mushroom, poison mushroom, metal box, timer, lightning, franklin badge
This is banned list 1. Basically they have no spot in tournaments but these items have some drawbacks. They are very disruptive and cause havoc.
Rank 6: maximum tomatos, heart container, fairy bottle, starman, gust bellows, back shield, special flag
These are only allowed when everything is allowed. They are unbelieveably broken items where there are no defense strats or you simply run for your life. They change the tide of a match too much to even be considered for legality ever
While obviously this should be discussed, i think it breaks it down a little bit while also categorizing the items more. Which i do feel would be better for running item tournaments, leagues, or round robins. Some items in lower ranks might seem stronger but do remember, i tried to categorize more so on how disruptive and how much change they can bring. Could the beam sword be an overall better item than a bomb omb? Yes but its not going to explode at random.
Please take it into thought before dismissing
The main reason I didn’t want to break it out further was more for simplicity’s sake, while still maintaining enough division.
I do take your point in deciding value of items based less on their power and more on their disruptiveness. It is an idea that warrants consideration. These are the kind of discussions I’d prefer to have here, though.
My point with taking the whole “validity” argument out is that it will do nothing but derail the purpose of the thread. I would rather have a discussion with the idea that this isn’t an argument, as it makes it far more difficult to discuss the specifics when the argument of “fuck it, it’s all bad” kinda works counter to that.
You cant have rankings without validity
Which items are nuts is an argument of validity.
Which items are okay is an argument of validity
They are not mutually exclusive ideas and cannot be. You have to understand why something can be broken before saying that it definitely isnt. Same as the argument for the reverse
We’re talking about two different things. I’m actually saying ALL items are valid (yes, even gust bellows). Some are just more potent than others. A Rank 5 setup would be as valid as a Rank 1, however. For those who dare enter. It’s like high-stakes poker. It’s not for everyone, but if you wanna try it? Go for it.
What my point behind validation is where to draw the line for certain levels of stakes. The more potent the effect, the wilder the results can skew. All ranks are valid, but some ranks may be too rich for some people’s blood. The entire purpose of the ranking system is to simplify this determination.