The Emilie de Rochefort (Lili) Thread

Some questions from an AE player turned total nub, day 1 Lili:

Aside from df+HK and b+MK, what other AAs does she have? What can she juggle off of b+MK? I’ve been using cr.HP a bit, as that’s more natural for me; can I cancel that into any special to juggle?

What’s the best usage of her meter, in combos? If I have one bar stocked, what combos off of a hit-confirm or tag team will I definitely want to learn towards?

I’m having a lot of trouble with Lili’s footsies. Her slow walk speed and seemingly little way to force her way in from the air leave me looking at buffer poking with cr.MK xx HP Rekka (I’m sorry!!!), and using f+MK -> MP hit-confirming. What else is good at mid-range? Spending meter to use an EX move to force my way in? I’m tired of getting turtled out. I almost feel like I just want to stick Lili in the second character slot to maximize her up-close time and combos, but Lili is the whole damn reason I bought this game, and I’m trying my best to make her my “main,” even though this is a team game :slight_smile:

Similarly, how can I maximize my mix-ups when I’m in? I’ve been sticking to st.LP, st.LP -> combo or launcher on hit, or f+HK overhead, or cr.MK xx LP Rekka on block. Her walk range is junk, so walking up for a throw is much harder than it should be, and it doesn’t seem like her dive kick is used in this type of mix-up. What can I do to make it so Lili is much deadlier when in?

@RobotMakoto

Lii’s walk speed is weird to get used to at first, but once you mess around with her spacing a bit more, you get the hang of it. It doesn’t really hinder her at all. She doesn’t need to advance terribly rapidly on most characters because she has a lot of ways to threaten people who try to poke her or jump at her.

Getting to df+HK range is the first step to getting in with Lili. Once you get here, people who know the matchup won’t want to jump at you because the ensuing Andante combo will hurt and get Lili in anyway. Hover at this range for a second or two to make sure your opponent knows and/or respects the threat of df+HK, and then start looking for f+MK/c. MK range.

f+MK is her best way to get in on people, by far. There’s absolutely no shame in needling people who are staying on the ground with f+MK. You’re only +0 on block, but even at tip range you’re well-spaced to start walk jab pressure (fishing for Bedtime confirm, tick throw, or bait reversals/crouch tech/alpha counter) or poke people’s ankles with c. LK/c. MK xx Dendrobium.

f+MK, MP is negative on block, but should still be safe from most characters not named Julia (not sure who besides her has 2-frame punishes yet). If you know they’re going to try and mash out of your pressure when you go negative, you can attempt a pre-emptive mid/low counter (OCCASIONALLY…don’t get predictable) and teach them to sit still when you’re not at least jab punishable. Still, better to try and hit-confirm f+MK before hitting MP.

Bear in mind that just plain walking in, if you know your opponent’s footsie habits well, can also work well to get Lili into jab range. Lili doesn’t walk very fast, but even once she’s past Andante range, she has at least two good options to teach people not to hit buttons to try and keep her out – her max-range pokes (f+MK, c. MK) and her counters (hcb+P).

If you think they’re going to be passive as you can approach, use f+MK and c. MK xx special until you walk into jab range. Basic stuff. If you think they’re going to try and cut you off with zoning pokes or close-range jumps, this is where the counters come in.

LP counter doesn’t do a lot of damage (compared to an Andante combo), but it’s active from the first frame and thus can be done VERY late against jump-ins if you’re too close for Andante (and it’s a lot easier than walk-under Andante if you’re in crossup range). Hard knockdown right into an okizeme tactic of your choice.

MP counter can beat deep jump-ins and pretty much any poke that isn’t actually ground-humping low (remember that her counters are hitbox-height-based and not absolute vs. certain moves). Use to beat badly spaced jabs or baited pokes to teach your opponent to use something else (or nothing at all) to keep you out.

HP counter is the most risky, but can really be good to mindfuck people who rely on c. MK to keep you from advancing. If you’ve been blocking a couple low forwards and have figured out the range/situation in which your opponent is most likely to throw them, try to catch one with a counter at max range. If your counter whiffs and it doesn’t get punished, don’t worry, but lay off the non-anti-air counters for a while to be safe. Hopefully just the threat of the whiff counter will have taught your opponent “Okay he knows about low forward, time to mix it up a little”, and here you can attempt to get ahead in the mindgames about how your opponent will counter your counters and turn that to your advantage.

Once you’re in, your main move is standing LP. Whore the hell out of this move, because it (or once you’ve used it a lot, the mere THREAT of it) leads to everything else. If it hits, you can do multiple jabs before confirming to Bed Time into special or fierce->launcher. If it’s blocked, you can hang onto the frame advantage for a very long time with more s. LP, s. LP, Left Right Combo, f+MK, etc. Go low occasionally with c. LK/c. MP/c. MK to remind your opponent that they can’t just hold back to walk away from your pressure during jab gaps. Her overhead is decently fast, but I’d still hold off on using it on block for the most part (except from stuff like TK EX divekick, because they’re pretty much guaranteed to sit still and hold db after suddenly blocking that). Attempt the overhead occasionally from something on hit instead (f+MK,MP or Dendrobium), where the frame advantage is a lot bigger and mashing on reaction is harder.

Her jab can also be a good setup for jump back HK divekick (to stomp on or discourage crouch tech/low interrupts Cammy-style), or crossup j. MK if you think they can’t handle walk-under on reaction (and you don’t already have them in the corner). Other than that, stand LP all day. Jab pressure in general is good in this game, but Lili’s is some of the best because it’s so easy to confirm and requires very little risk or commitment to do so (Bed Time is the shit).

And once you get the life lead from landing a good combo with Lili, don’t be afraid to get a little lame. Advance far enough to put your opponent under mental (if not literal) pressure and control the situation, but don’t go nuts trying to go in deep unless you really need the damage to pull ahead, or unless you really need to hold down a character who’s good on offense but bad on defense (e.g. Vega).

Lili has low life, but she has a lot of good ways to defend herself at mid-range (anti-air Andante, counters), decent anti-fireball options (Divine Step, empty Feisty Rabbit at long range, a good vertical jump that can LEAD to reaction Divine Step on fireballs), and a good dash/backdash if she either needs to charge an opponent running away with the life lead, or to run away herself when time is running out and she has the lead. She’s not only good at pressure, but can set some fairly strict rules about how and when people can attack her when she has the advantage. Learn how and when to play her both offensively and defensively to maximize her potential.

EDIT: As for alternative anti-airs, you don’t really NEED any besides df+HK and s. MK. c. HP can hit directly above her head, but it doesn’t go up very far and will probably lose badly to really good deep jump-ins (might beat certain shallow crossups, though). Pretty sure s. MK already covers that range with much greater vertical range and a LOT more upper-body invincibility. Only trick is to use it EARLY, not late. All the invinciblity is concentrated in her attacking leg (about from her chest upwards), and lasts only for the duration of the active frames.

If you’re not in position for/ready to react with Andante or s. MK, just use her LP or MP counter (LP should work more than MP unless they have an INSANELY deep jump-in that somehow avoids Lili’s head hitbox). Empty jump beats counters, of course, but you can do the counters so late that you can really train people to jump-attack super-late or not at all against Lili, allowing you to anti-air with s. MK/df+HK a lot easier on reaction.

I didn’t realize Bedtime was so vital, I’ve just been using st.LP -> st.LP -> cr.MK for the most part. Definitely gonna get on that.

Do you recommend going into EX Rekka over tagging in your partner in most cases (assuming meter usage is appropriate at that point, AKA you’re not going to kill your opponent or you don’t need to spend meter because you’re winning so hard with a round to go)?

any update on the archive of chris hu, im learning lili’s combos, but watchign a pro play her well would be awesome. maybe lemon lust can get soem of the vids onto youtube and into the guide. (that would be awesome but i understand if its too much effort)

Well, It’s good to know i was using bedtime correctly from the beginning. nice easy hit confirm too. shame i have such trouble telling myself to get right in their face.
smash brothers is way too different from other fighters XD

Uh yeah its not about using it on its own it’s about setting up 50/50’s when you tag her in from a multi hitting blocked move like the one I mentioned.

In that case, it does seem like a pretty good option if they’re low on life. Need a REALLY long multi-hitting move with an early tag cancel to get the most out of it, though. I can’t really do that with my team (Lili/Hugo; not much damage I can get off IOH during EX Lariat, which is pretty short and probably full of holes. Even with an early tag cancel, I’m not sure it lasts long enough to be entirely safe or even advantageous for Lili).

EDIT: I dunno what I’m doing wrong, but I can’t even get it to WORK with Hugo/Lili right now. Hugo c. MP xx EX Lariat, tag cancel 1st hit, Lili instant jump LK keeps getting magically blocked whenever the instant overhead is actually attempted. Block option is set to None (I thought Auto Block was the problem the first time) and the dummy is programmed to do nothing but hold db for 10 seconds. But the entire sequence still gets blocked from crouch block. Do they have some kind of stupid protection built in against IOH from tag cancel?

Dummy is Kazuya, in case that matters.

EDIT 2: It doesn’t appear to be a training mode CPU idiosyncracy. To double-check, I put the dummy on solo control, plugged in my brother’s Hitbox, put a heavy object on db and tested the sequence again. The dummy still blocks the instant overhead from db.

**EDIT 3: **I thought maybe starting the sequence from a true low (c. LK xx EX Lariat) would make a difference (defeat some kind of arcane fuzzy-guard protection I might have activated), but it doesn’t. Dummy still blocks the whole damn thing from crouch block.

On a different subject, at least the Hugo matchup seems pretty manageable due to Andante and counters. Early splash gets owned by Andante (no risk whatsoever, and a nice high float works very well with Hugo’s gigantic hitbox for max-damage combos), and if Andante isn’t an option, counter always works. Remember that those long-ass active frames can work AGAINST Hugo as much as they work FOR him!

Counter is also a really good option against clap pressure (just don’t try to counter between c. MP/c. LP and the LP clap, you generally won’t like the result). c. MP after blocked LP clap will lose to MP counter. c. LP is free after LP clap, but will get OS blocked if you buffer the counter during the clap that precedes it (because of course you roll to back). c. LK will lose to low counter, but the window is really tight to get it out unless Hugo is sloppy or staggering his pressure.

And of course Lili has a bunch of ways to defeat lariat armor. On the ground you can do light attack xx hcb+MP to trigger the armor and counter the slow lariat (or of course you can just keep on trucking with jabs if Hugo is dumb enough to try and lariat a jab). On block you can punish easily with c. LK into whatever. In the air she has her j.LK>j.MK chains and j. HP, the latter of which is especially good. The first hit eats the armor, the second interrupts the lariat, and you get a full jump-in combo on a standing Hugo afterwards. Go nuts with knee combos!

Wow, this game sucks then lol.

Tell me about it. Really don’t get why 90% of Orlando is frothing at the mouth for this game. :frowning:

When you’re hit by a move from a second person while already in blockstun, you gain autoblock properties and will guaranteed block it.

sorry to ask this again, but anyone have a link to the chris hu lili archive?

http://www.own3d.tv/teamspooky

Lili’s j.lk turns into a high if it doesn’t get blocked within the first few active frames, according to the frame data. Maybe they got it turned around?

During my spring break thus far…
Xanadu weekly: 2-2 placed i dunno where didn’t care to ask. Hella nervous.
Saturday’s Tourney at GMU: Placed fourth. Kenx Lili put in some work.

Still need to improve. Will post links to the vids later. now i’m sleepy ><* peace!

Anyone know if the frame data for lili is actually correct? Particularly with her f.HK/cr.MK, because for some reason, cr.MK links after her overhead (and her cr.MK is 5, while her overhead is +4)

if you’re trying that out in training mode, could you possibly have it set to counter hits?
And we know the brady guide does have some issues. It says steve’s super is frame 3, when its frame 4, among other things

That’s the first thing I checked, counter hits were off.

Well, I know frames sometimes differ depending on if the opponent was standing or crouching for overheads, The guide will usually assume the opponent is crouching for an overhead. Perhaps thats it?
Although, if you had them crouching already, then i genuinely have nothing

I tried both, works regardless.

Cool, Frame data is wrong then, lili is suddenly much better