The DHC Trick - Damage & Hit-Stun Scaling Reset

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
541

Although I normally argue with Duck Strong he brought up what I think is the most important part of that conversation. In Marvel 3 doing incredibly dangerous powerful things is easy, in Marvel 2 not anyone could go in and kill a character for free off an opportunity Barring BBH teams but that’s a separate case.

In Marvel 2 the chances that an execution error would keep 1 hit from killing you were fairly high despite the myriad of 100% combos that characters had, in Marvel 3 I can pick up one of the good characters I don’t main and still kill with minimal effort. Case and point although Viper Ammy Task is my main team I decide to occasionally play X-23/Wesker/Taskmaster for a brain dead DHC glitch team. With my knowledge of basics and just being able to BBC 236A as X-23 I can still kill over half the cast with no effort, especially if I hit with Taskmaster arrows a really easy opener for her.

542

Ease of execution shouldn’t matter. If you feel that the execution barrier in MvC3 is too easy then that is a systemic problem with the game and not the fault of any one glitch, bug, trick, etc. and should not be a factor in this discussion. I think that is something that people are going to have to eventually accept. If it really bugs you that a Wolverine player can basically hit 700K damage by mashing his face against the arcade stick then this might not be the game for you because while it is entirely possible (nay probably) that Capcom will eventually patch out the DHC trick I sincerely doubt they’ll patch in a shit ton of 1 frame links just to make the game harder.

543

He deals ~638,000 off of his standard BnB into Fatal Claw. He only needs two combos to kill you and those combos are ridiculously easy.

544

If you’ve read my previous posts in this thread you’ll see that since there are a lot of characters who don’t need the glitch to get equivalent damage I don’t think it’s an issue, but just wanted to emphasize Duck Strong’s point.

545

Why do combos have to be difficult to do in order to make a game good?

Lowering the execution barrier does not make a game worse, it just makes players who relied on fancy combos instead of sound fundamentals really, really salty.

It’s not physically difficult to move pieces in chess, yet that’s a great game.

546

Yeah in the end I play fighting games for the movement and spacing and tight back and forth pressure between matches. It’s nice to have high execution but in the end you’re in a battle and it’s not just about the combos. I always go for characters with high execution because they generally fit my play style but I dont necessarily need the whole game to be around characters that take a month of sitting down to not drop their combos at a tournament. That’s fun for me but it’s not fun for other people. That’s generally what keeps people from playing the games any way when they already have to learn how to move and space in a battle and then when they finally get a hit in it doesn’t matter any way cuz they’ll probably drop whatever they tried. People make fun of ABCS BBCS…but that’s what gets people into playing.

In SFIV it was worse because any combo that required real execution or did a lot of hits went through such a hard damage scale that there was no point in using the longer more interesting combos. In that game you were pretty much forced to use the simple combos because doing anything fancy or elongated just scaled to all hell. That’s part of why I like this game better because if you do put in the work like with the Viper and Magneto combos you get the reward which is bigger damage than the stuff that’s easier to do. Unlike in SFIV where pretty much everyone should do the same 5 hit combo all the time.

It’s obvious the game is going to change any way. This is just the Vanilla version of MVC3 and whatever you see now is not what you’re going to see when there’s an eventual update with new characters and direct changes to the XF engine, obviously the DHC glitch gonna go away and other stuff. Most likely stuff that’s too easy to get like Wolverine’s near 700k 1 meter will get toned down. Not to mention the days of a completely self sufficient character like Wesker having 1.1 million health will go the way of the Dodo. Sure the game’s not perfect but of course it’s going to be because it’s the first version of the game. Most of the stuff we’re talking about wont matter later on.

547

this is the exact team one of my friends uses, and yeah its stupid as hell the easy ass 2 meter tods its capable of and yeah i get salty about it all the time. my friend concurs that its a dumb team and one of many reasons why he cant take marvel seriously.

(this coming from the guy that uses the team)

lets not with the inappropriate chess analogies. moving pieces in chess is equivalent to pressing normals in fighting games. thinking ahead many variations is equivalent to combos… and yes the ability to see ahead further in a position gives one chess player a huge advantage over one who cannot.

execution shouldnt be “everything” but it should be very important. a perfect game would balance decision making with execution and reactions. all reactions would be no good as would be all smarts, no execution.

glitch upsets what little balance execution had with smarts in mvc3. i dont like super high execution games like GG, 3s,cvs2 etc.

but there should be a balance. c’mon now.

also, although lowering execution barriers definitely pisses off many high execution players… you arent seriously arguing that good execution isnt one of the many fundamentals of fighting games are you?

i mean, I GET IT. ive played against a fuckload of ridiculously high execution players that were just fucking bad players that rely on strong combo skills to get themselves out of rough situations… its annoying to say the least. but i’d rather play them than masher #816383616 that can glitch there way to a tod or DHCx3 there way to 800 k damage… just saying.

it should be a balance of both. glitch has caused a disturbance in the force and the situation should be rectified.

but meh. ive got a glitch team im working on just in case this shit stays. and i dont expect anyone to not use glitch teams nor do i advocate not using them, i honestly think EVERYONE should be using them the same way damdai championed remix akuma after people said that remix akuma wasnt ban worthy…

-dime

548

Renegade, execution is an important barrier to the game that gives it part of its import, as you can ask anyone who plays me in norcal I rely on solid fundamentals which is why except in Marvel games I fail to play only a single character using that fundamental structure of how to make your opponent make more mistakes than you do to branch out to the majority of the cast.

I believe thought should be the most important part of the game but if the execution barrier were taken away a lot of tools need to be completely rebalanced as well. IE in Super Turbo if a shoryuken were 1 button and the game ran at 1/10 the speed the execution barrier on utilizing shoryu disappears. The game is massively worse with this as the amount of viable options with that lack of execution barrier drops dramatically for a lot of the cast especially in the normals department. Anyone being able to shoryu a jab on reaction in a game detracts from its playability. I am NOT arguing that the DHC glitch should be removed, I am however siding with the fact that an execution barrier of certain kinds is vital to making games both fun and playable.

Also, my primary team does the same damage as glitch teams so taking it out or leaving it won’t make mine more viable, just maybe more dominant.

549

Yeah you guys are tripping in. I’m going to comment on two things, the comparisons to MvC2 and the sub-debate on execution.

Firstly MvC2;

Strider/Doom and Spiral/Sent traps are NOT one touches. Even Clock and Duck, the top players of those teams don’t play the traps perfectly and leave gaps in the lockdown. Watch the famous Neo/Clock and see how many times Clock “one touches” a team in an entire FT15 set. ZERO TIMES, I think.

Magneto to one-touch needed at least two resets or a reset and a DHC against certain low-health characters. The resets are a gamble and the DHCs required specific setups (to be unmashable). Guard breaks required specific timing and were escapable.

The entire point of Cable is to build gauge until he chain AHVBs. His gameplan is so entirely one-dimensional that he’s considered one of the weakest god tiers.

The closest thing to true one-touches are the Storm-Sent DHC aka America’s favorite. That is honestly one of the dumbest things in the game and does entirely too much damage, coupled with the fact that Storm/Sent are two of the best in the game. The other is an Ironman team, the issue being IM isn’t that great on point and required strong execution.

Now compare this to MvC3 where something like half the cast can be set up so they can do a Day 1 launch combo, DHC then do another Day 1 launch combo and kill a character. This included zoning characters, rushdown characters, whatever. Any easy hit-confirm with the proper team setup (of which there are many) means an easy one touch. In MvC2, IM was respected as a high-execution character but was deemed boring and flowcharty to the point where if he lands a single hit, it kind of becomes autopilot, which was far from a fun, interactive experience. Now it’s the same way, minus the execution part :shake:.

About execution:

Execution is a strong factor in gameplay and balance. Powerful things should be difficult to perform and setup, not piss easy like it is in MvC3. My one complaint against this game overall isn’t just directed at the DHC glitch, which I think to some extent is superfluous due to the fact that EVERYTHING DOES SO MUCH FUCKING DAMAGE. Even without XF or DHC glitches, the game as it is has chip percentage way too high, normal BnBs doing craptons of damage and assist non-scaling means random supers can wipe out assist calls. I take issue with this because it reduces the marginal reward you receive for more sophisticated combos and setups as well as increases the random factor for right/wrong guesses. For a comparison, I think I once played this on “Lowest” damage and everything still did noticeably more damage than in normal settings for MvC2. Food for thought. Honestly, if Capcom just reduced the overall damage levels this game would be much more enjoyable.

550

As for execution not mattering… Let’s make Gief’s SPD just a single button press in SF4.

Obviously, that would be fucking stupid, and ruin the game.

Also, I wish people would stop saying that most characters can use the DHC glitch. What really matters is who can START it, and most cannot. Also, who can most easily be the 2nd character? They will be picked most.

Just because X character can sort-of-kinda be the 2nd character in the DHC glitch doesn’t really mean anything. People will just pick the most easy-mode top-tier-character way to do it instead (yay wolverine).

551

Why would it ruin the game?

552

Walk forward spd?

In any game that’s not scrub fighter 4 where it would actually matter, free reveral spd through any block string (notice this is already free in SF4).

See a character throw out a limb, mash spd.

Crouch block anything that’s -1 or worse, free spd.

Having to do 5+ inputs instead of just 1 makes a world of difference and the rewards for landing a spinner are tailored around that.

How about we go one further and make sonic booms 1 button, or 720’s. Have you played CvS2 EO? It’s completely retarded because of this. Same with SF4 on 3ds.

Are you starting to see why execution should matter? Now try and make the connection with the DHC glitch, which is basically a 100% damage 1 button spd.

Thanks for asking the question with the most obvious answer in the world though, I get where you’re coming from a little bit better now.

553

Standing 360 is already possible so I don’t really see how it matters.

Not charging something that’s clearly balanced off having to be charged is obviously broken.

554

Cause hits in mvc3 are coming from sound fundamentals? Game is random as all hell

555

The DHC glitch allows 1 hit confirm into a TOD combo for 2 bars without x-factor on any character, including thor.

I’m sick of reading these fucking posts of “Other characters have TOD combos without DHC glitch”

There is no TOD combo without TACC/Xfactor/using more than two bars on Thor, but you can accomplish it by abusing the DHC glitch.

That is why the DHC glitch is unfair, you’re abusing a GLITCH to get an ADVANTAGE is a COMPETITIVE game.

What existed in MVC2 is irrelevant.

556

**Execution **barrier is not the point. If a game is easy on execution, it’s great for the average people to do stuff, but other factors should take it’s place for the pro-gamers.

100% combos are a problem, but in a game with 3 characters and comeback mechanics, being able to 100% someone under certain circunstances takes away 1/3 of his game, the match should be still open. Capcom designed it this way.

The problem here is that Capcom designed **ONE **set of mechanics to make 100% combos possible, and a glitch was found that gives you ANOTHER ONE.

I’m ok with people “wasting” his lvl 1 X-factor to kill my character if they feel good about it, because i will have x-factor and they will not…
…but i don’t like any infinite or any glith that resets the damage scalling, thus allowing them to kill me while keeping his RESOURCES for a later time.

You now can start a match with an air Grab, option selected into a dash, do a fancy combo towards the corner, fill the 2nd hyper bar, and DHC for the kill (bypassing the grab’s damage scalling).
You still have X-factor avaliable to kill another one, and to place a little pressure on the third one (while your x-factor is still on).
Then he can play with 3 characters, using 2 assists to help his solid fundamentals, and he still have his x-factor.
You have x-factor lvl 3 for a comeback, without assists.

Capcom did patch the Cap-america infinite, he should patch the DHC glitch, and patch any other infinite, or any combo based on bugs, that kills your character.

I don’t like that the game allows to pull you up from the ground more than 1 time… because it is anoying, but at least, the damage scalling is on.

What existed in marvel 2 is irrelevant.
Now the games can be patched anytime, so we expect patches to happen, and fix things.
If a glitch is found in a SNES competitive (retro) game, or in a Saturn / Ps2 game, it can’t be patched, so tournament rules may ban to use the glitch, or people may decide not to play the game, but right now we all expect Capcom to:
1-> patch the game, if the bug is not intended, and is a problem for the game.
or 2-> say that it is ok.
Capcom didn’t do any of those.

Years ago, when we found a bug in a game, the use of the bug was banned, because game couldn’t be patched. Now, we expect a patch to happen, **or else, **we assume that it is not a bug and the game is ok, and that is wrong.

557

Are you retarded? Regardless of the situation, an spd takes more than 1 frame to do. Get it? Being able to do it at the drop of a hat while walking toward the guy is a ridiculous buff for a grappler.

Sorry to get nasty, but I’m really starting to think you’re just trolling.

558

I don’t even know what I’m saying after I submit it.

559

@Paper: Viper would like a word with you, just splice 3 reps of infinite at the end of her B&B and she kills Thor for 1 starting gauge, more reps and she doesn’t even need to start with any gauge. With correct assists others break that damage cap as well. Don’t say no character can do something when multiple characters can do it.

560

Oh you got me bro, you’re right an infinite can do more damage than the dhc trick.

Now how about you stop being stupid?