^^This
it annoys me as well how a lot of people say this. what really matters is the unique spin state that is created from certain DHC’s isnt it? why would people choose dante to start the DHC glitch, which can only be done of off 2 of his crappest moves, and not just do it with storm/wolvie whoever who have a much easier time of it?
Mainly because Storm is BUTT ASS compared to Dante. All you have to do is watch Ten Stars blowing people up with really creative setups for the DHC glitch using TAC combos and use of level 1 XF plus Devil Trigger to see the difference. Dante is such a better character before the DHC glitch that the DHC glitch that Storm can utilize doesn’t do much other than literally keep Storm competitive. The ease of use factor for Storm and Wolverine will only become more irrelevant as people realize that Dante is just that much better with a bit of work. It’s not like it’s SF or something where Storm is on some M.Bison shit and blows up the normals of every character in the game and can practically get out of option selects half the time. Dante is just better period. DHC glitch is practically keeping the character breathing and people most of the cast can 100 percent kill or one combo then reset to small combo finish her off any way.
Dorm can’t start or end the DHC glitch and he’s still a much bigger problem for a lot of the cast. So much of a problem that he’s used to blow up Phoenix players. If a character that cant start or follow up the glitch is blowing shit up that much in tournaments it just goes to show that DHC glitch is barely a problem. Most teams usually only have one character that can start or or end the DHC glitch so basically you can just kill off whoever they most likely have first that can start the glitch and then that pretty much fucks the team up right there. Like a typical DHC glitch team of Mag/Taskmaster/Sent. Kill off Mag with a basic bnb to DHC (which plenty of characters can amount that much damage) or one combo to reset him (a bit riskier but works) or level 1 XF kill him on a hit and now the worst thing you’re worrying about is level 3 XF Sent in the back. Who was still a problem before the glitch and people will most likely still be burning level 1 XF to kill off a character as dangerous as Magneto or Wolverine when the glitch goes away.
Storm is so bad you’re practically better off starting Wolverine first and trying to launch into TAC on a hit. Which still technically gives you a 66 percent chance of landing a DHC glitch due to their ability to escape on a ratio of at least a 1/3 of the time. That’s still better than having Storm on point trying to start the glitch. She’s better off in the back where the one scary aspect of her comes into play which is having a bunch of meter and XF2/3 for chip where half the cast has to lose half their life or more just to get close enough to kill her… Storm without meter and XF2/3 is one of the least scary things the game presents. DHC glitch doesn’t make up for it.
66% chance, implying that your opponent is spamming a random direction and isn’t smart enough to know what the fuck you can do off of an upward TACC.
Assuming your execution is somewhat ok, you can start the DHC glitch with Dante as easily as with storm, and you do more damage and build more meter in the process.
Add that Dante has more ways to get hits in than storm(and everyone else for that matter besides Zero/Magneto) and there you go, a perfectly valid reason to choose dante.
Add that he’s overall a much better character with much better options.
Once people get off their asses and learn combos, there will be no reason whatsoever to use storm over dante outside of hailstorm.
I use Storm mostly because I like her; DHC glitch or not, Storm/Wesker have other gimmicks together that will make me happy without it. But Storm’s main problem is the lack of whiffing normals to build meter. They took away her run away game and left her as a kinda shitty rushdown character (this is compared to other characters).
@Paper: 3 reps of the infinite is the easiest most stable way, though it’s perfectly possible to do by subtracting Bs and adding 3 feint cancel h TKs, the single DHC into Task with that kills Tron and I’m fairly certain by optimizing the semi launch sections can kill Thor.
I play Gief. Walk Forward SPD is a footsie. Changing specials to one button press would not fundamentally alter gameplay because at high levels execution is over 90%. You always plan on him hitting that anti air DP.
Blocking and spacing to avoid hits are sound fundamentals. Blowing people up for hitting buttons is sound fundamentals.
So someone who does difficult moves should win most of the time, right?
We’re not talking about Reaction, which would be godlike if the game were slowed down. If the game is at super slow speeds, you could Preztel motion every jump in just as easily as one button press.
It’s way more about the WHEN to utilize something than then IF you can in fighting games.
Buffering it into normals lesses the time it takes to come out, obviously. SPD is just a bad example.
You’re severly underating Storm. She’s pretty damn good. But I’m sure 80% of the cast w/o xfactor and meter isn’t very threatening.
Speaking of that, Dormammu can both start and end the DHC glitch.
Um… 21 characters can start it in some way or another. That’s MOST in my book. 8 through direct hypers, 5 through special states moves, 4 through throws/counters, and 4 more through Trish’s peekaboo.
Stop being lazy and thinking only Magneto, Storm, and Dante can start it.
the only two ways he can start it is by comboing from either his crazy dance into devil trigger, which is pretty hard to get consistently due to the strict timing into crazy dance, or from his grapple move, which again is not easy to combo into. saying its just as easy as storm is pushing it a bit.
sorry i wasnt clearer as well but i wasnt necessarily bringing up that storm is better than dante (or vice versa) i was just using it as an example really to point out that from a choice of “easy DHC glitch” or “difficult DHC glitch” surely the scales are in favour of the easy road every time. having that kind of distinction cant be good for the game in the long run.
Lol, I swear to God you have a pathological need to be contrary even in the face of the obvious. A 1 button spd would be absolutely retarded. When you walk forward and do an spd you have to roll back to get it, i.e. it takes a longer time to do the move. Meaning you are vulnerable for a number of frames. If it was just one input, it would fundamentally change the way Gief plays. No amount of, I play Gief so I should know, bs would convince anyone with half a brain that this isnt the case.
Find somewhere else to troll or get a fucking clue.
It’s not the chance to mess it up that makes a motion important though that also has an impact it’s the fact that if you need to expend less mental energy to execute the amount of viable times you can use it increases. You play gief, but do you consider Bison a free match up because you can SPD his stand roundhouse on reaction? Not at all, a lot of things change in viability based on their motions. also the fact that reacting with 1 frame input of a button press means that the effective usable time of a move is shorter as if you start something on reaction that takes 8 inputs that’s at best 8 frames since the time your reaction starts before the start up of the move.
Crazy dance is “hard”(about as hard as SC just frames) to get consistently but is actually at the end of a full Dante combo, so it builds mad meter and does mad damage and is probably the best way to go in the glitch, but there are tons of easy setups into grapple. You don’t need to be an execution god to start the glitch with Dante.
Lol, I swear to god you can’t actually post without trying to insult someone. Does it make you feel better?
“Mommy I called someone retarded on the internet! I feel accomplished today!”
I’m not saying the game needs a 1 button SPD, but at high levels, it effectively is a 1 button move. It’s not like you’re doing -3 moves in Gief’s face thinking he’s going to miss the SPD, are you? So you wouldn’t nessesarily play any differently if the motion were in fact 1 button.
At high levels, execution becomes such a tertiary part of the game because everyone’s hitting their combos and getting their special moves. It’s all in the when’s and whys. Strategy if you will.
Lowering or Raising that barrier changes nothing in high level play.
The main problem with high execution gameplay ala Guilty Gear, CvS2, or Alpha3 is that you are essentially turning the game into 2 player beatmania. “Ok, it’s now your turn to hit 1 frame links! Don’t mess up!”
I’m not advocating CvS2 EO mode or whatever, but criticizing gameplay for having a lower entry point is rather stupid… if you gameplan revolves around people missing special move motions or dropping combos, you need to level up.
Instant execution vs manual input isn’t really a big deal. In WoW, you had instant execution (tbf there is still a large amount of work to put in execution-wise), that did not stop you from incorrectly using the ability, mistiming the ability, improper reaction to an ability being used against you. Even with all of that done properly, it still comes down to matchups.
Renegade, I’m assuming you didn’t see my post as it’s not about assuming they’ll mess up their execution it’s the amount of situations it’s applicable in. A 1 button SPD completely changes all the match ups where Gief has issues dealing with a long range counter-poking normal that keeps him out as with no execution window he can grab them before they come out to give him an issue and this is just the peak of the iceberg.
Not really, because you’re essentially making it a psychic DP type usage at that point. It’s not like you can react that quickly to their button presses, and if you miss (or they used a different normal) he’s left open for like 50 frames.
Now if it’s like SF2 and there’s no whiff animation? That’s a bit different.
Look, I understand the point of basic motions for moves, I’m arguing the basic premise that a higher barrier to entry automatically is a good thing. This is an analogy argument, not a literal one.
What can I say? Your razor sharp wit just rubs me the wrong way.
Dunno how I can make this clearer, but if youre not already in the process of doing the motion, or buffering the spd from a blockstring, an spd requires more time to execute than a single button press. Changing the motion in this cases indirectly changes the basic properties of the move, not to mention what it does to Giefs mental game too. You can see this to a lesser extent in SF4, where its basically suicide to try anything but tight blockstrings against Gief.
You can just mash S to get Dante to do crazy dance. I know precision is cool but seriously, just mash that shit.
My wit tends to do that.
Ok. We’re getting caught up in the bowels of the arguement instead of the big picture.
so how about this?
instead of 1 button press (1 frame and such) only… Imagine it’s a programmable controller with 1 button. so you hit said button, and it inputs the move for you?
Move properties are exactly the same… you just never miss it.
Does that really change the game for the worse? Not especially.
I don’t postulate that we should basically turn the game into Smash Brothers or whatever… but railing against MvC3 for being beginnerfriendly is a bum rap, b/c it’s not like beginners are dominating experts, they just win 5% more than they used to.
If that gets more players in the scene, more tourneys, more sponsors, more expert players, and more fighting games down the road… I don’t see how that’s a bad thing.
It’s like expert poker players complaining about dumb online players during the poker boom.
On the side note: SF4’s problem was the fact that blockstun is so little, making almost every block string to be unsafe against mashy giefs. It’s not really an ease of input problem.
A programmable controller is different from a true 1 button SPD, that’s what? 7 frames more time post reaction before the move can be used? Although that’s a shifting of the goal post I agree that it would have dramatically less effect than the previous other than choking moments which are plentiful even at top levels of play.
The issue with the game is not that it’s beginner friendly, the issue is that the efficacy of beginner friendly techniques is incredibly high, giving less of an incentive for improvement. IE I play Magneto a decent amount in MvC2, I can hit the ROM consistantly, I have moderate theory on correctly approaching in a safe yet aggressive manner etc. I don’t play Magneto as a primary character in 3 and do the beyond scrubby C air dash B C jump repeat loop after launch. With a very limited understanding of Marvel 3 Magneto theory I kill the majority of the cast off 2 mix ups that are easy to get as a character I don’t really use. I think that my dislike of the low/scrubby execution barrier in this game is more the fact that it combines with the damage being so high to make results far more erratic whereas if the entirety of damage was lower then being able to put minimal effort into the combos would have a smaller impact on game-play since the ‘lucky hit’ factor is dramatically lower and people who are able to create opportunities for themselves consistently do better.
The point you should be making is that execution is irrelevant when concerning combos. Special moves outside of combos are a different story.
What does this really have to do with the DHC Glitch being bad? Nothing. Just like MvC2. Just like how many characters can start the DHC Glitch. Just like X-Factor. Just like Rocco’s Modern Life.