The death of fighting games… A personal journey that hopefully can help MvC:I?

[Brightside6382]

I think the execution barrier related to FG’s is a misguided reason for why the genre is in itself so inaccessible to low level/casual players. A lot of the enjoyment of this genre comes from the less tangible aspects like reads, space control, mindset, etc. Generally speaking I’ve seen many players give up because while they spend hours grinding in training mode getting down their links they lose to someone who just shoots fireballs, anti-airs and plays almost insultingly basic. In recent years execution has been streamlined enough where even kind of sorta maybe doing a QCF/DP motion leads the desired command.

Developers need a better way of communicating the less tangible skills that are required to even break into the mid level of play. More robust tutorials that go beyond basic mechanics is a possible solution that has not been fully explored. Explaining to players the relationship between fireballs, space control, and the risks and benefits associated with such could help ease players into the mindset necessary to advance and think critically in situations. How you could streamline this type of tutorial is another question entirely considering it could easily become a text dump that goes over new players heads.

While I do think some sort of streamlined “basic” mode similar to what MvC3 did could help in the short term it most likely would do nothing to help player retention.

[BB_Hoody]

When people talk “accessibility” What exactly are folks asking for? What is the end goal or the ideal control scheme or inputs to make a fighting game accessible? What exactly is it that COD or MOBA’s do that fighting game’s don’t? because I usually see people tote those games as the benchmark for accessibility. And how can fighters implement such things without killing what makes a fighting game a fighting game?

I’m not familiar with Moba’s so I’ll look at FPS games. Game like COD from what I’ve played. Are very easy to pick up and play due to a large part of that is how the game is designed from the ground up. At least with COD4 and beyond. They didn’t try to make it accessible after the fact. The game is designed to be accessible in almost every way. Skill takes a back seat to accessibility in most FPS games. That is how no matter how nice you are in a FPS. You can still always end up eating a noobtoob to kill your streak. Getting shot from behind because of a lucky spawn by a foe. Getting popped by a foe that was camped out in a obscure location, guns with low recoil or SMGs that allow you to just spray and spray etc.

These things make it so that even a complete noob always has a fighting chance even from jump. Also the pacing of the game. You lose a match in Street Fighter? You have to wait a bit before joining another game so you have to eat that loss and dwell on it for a bit. COD? You die, and you are back in the fight within seconds. Also what I think is a game changer is the Kill Cam. A lil feature in the game that makes all the difference. It’s like a in game coach. You get killed and are frustrated? Just take a look at the kill cam and it’ll show you exactly how you died. With this on the fly information you can adapt and learn as you play. You saw in the kill cam you got killed by a camper in a certain location? Well now you know to check your corners and becareful when you are in that area because that’s where he like to camp. And you can use that knowledge to your advantage immediately.

Where as in a fighter we have replay features. But that’s after you get your ass kicked in a match. And this is stupid, but most casuals are not going to go out of their way to utilize the replay feature in a fighter. Where as in COD, that stuff is pretty much auto pilot and stuff is replayed in game right when they are killed so they can learn and adapt right then and there. So maybe fighters can implement features that make it easier to learn the game to a competent level while you are playing. Because while some inputs can be hard in fighters. I think the core issue for folks is the learning curve. Because we had a very accessible fighter in Rising Thunder and well even it produced this legendary salty moment

This isn’t from complex inputs being hard. This is from simply being outplayed, and being frustrated from not being able to adapt and figure out how to fight against the character. Even though the inputs are easy as fuck. The basics of fighter games such as spacing, footsies, the fireball game, completely escapes this guy.

[KiyaaKing]

Once again, it’s come to “add simple mode” vs “git gud”. So since this thread is still up in the MVCI section let me ask this: do you think THIS franchise, out of all possible choices, is the one to petition for casual-friendly gameplay? This series, which is known for its fast paced neutral and multi-layered combos? This series, that has been riddled with infinites and glitches for years? Capcom already made this new installment about as basic as you can get for a vs game in order to avoid completely overwhelming new players and they already stated they’re adding substantial single player content, but it’s asinine to think they can do much more than that without completely stripping the game of its identity. If it ain’t crazy, it ain’t Marvel. If you want a simple and non-frustrating fighter I don’t know why anyone would turn to the vs series for help.

What I’m really asking is why hasn’t this been moved to a more general thread since it is a more general issue that shouldn’t concern MVCI?

[drunkards_walk]

Complaining about execution barriers is dumb as shit to me because other genres have them too. I used to go really hard in COD4, and I was pretty damn good at the game. I played with the sensitivity on 10 and could pull off all sorts of crazy sniper shots. I haven’t played the game in years, and if you asked me to get on now with the same settings I used years ago it would be a joke. Why? Because there was an execution barrier. My reflexes improved a lot because I played the game over and over. The same thing happens in fighters.

This accessibility stuff is just really myopic. I’m fine with something like GG’s stylish mode, because it definitely gives you incentive to actually learn the “real” way to play. However, to expect the entire game to just be stylish mode is garbage, the games will lose their depth and identity in that case

[Hawkingbird]

Once again, it’s come to “add simple mode” vs “git gud”. So since this thread is still up in the MVCI section let me ask this: do you think THIS franchise, out of all possible choices, is the one to petition for casual-friendly gameplay?

This game will attract a huge casual fanbase. This game will have Marvel characters. It will attract fans of the movies, tv shows, cartoons, comics and other media these characters have appeared in. Marvel brand is much bigger now than it was 5 years ago when Marvel 3 hit.

[StockyJam]

Your everyday casual gets destroyed in those “simplified” games from the early 90’s. Simple or layered, it DOES NOT MATTER, its a mind set of dedication over one that just wants to have fun. If they can’t accept getting their shit pushed in as a part of having that fun then they should cease playing against more skilled players.

sure an experienced SF2 player is gonna trounce a casual.
sure.
thats not the point though.
the point is getting someone who’s never played a fighter, to get them to play.
you want accessibility.
old fighters had that. new fighters dont. on average.

and i knew that fellow SRKers who all consider themselves well versed in fighters and may have the the fighting game genre as their fav genre werent gonna see what i’m trying to get at.
i’m saying, that most folks nowadays dont have fighting games as their fav genre.
and those people arent gonna spend countless hours in training mode hammering complex stuff into their muscle memory. that notion is a turn off to them.

you guys are seeing things from our side of the fence and not theirs. you and i dont mind complexity, but they do.
its psychological.
in their minds, learning a ton of stuff, especially having to do it in training mode, is a hurdle they dont wanna jump over. its a turn off.

if you take Sf2, and take SF4…put em side by side, and ask someone who’s never played a fighter before…they are not gonna gravitate to SF4.

if you sit down next to a friend on your couch and try to teach them both games…once they hear you say “oh and you gotta spend 2 weeks to a month getting the muscle memory down in training mode to learn how to FADC…then you gotta spend another month to hammer down in training mode how to link a hit xx fadc xx ultra because its necessary to help you win since everyone else does it for 50% damage …etc etc, its something you cant skip to be able to compete with others.”

you aint getting that casual friend enthusiastic about playing SF4 at all.

you friend will be like "What about SF2? Do i have to spend any time in training mode?"
you’ll be like "nope."
and your friend will be like "No time in training mode, spending months every day repeating the same hand movements like in the other game? which tbh sounds really boring."
you "nope. matter of fact…the game has no training mode at all."
your friend "so i can just learn the game while i’m having fun playing against you?"
you "yup."
your friend "lets play SF2."
you "sure you dont wanna play SF4?"
friend “yeah, no thanks. i’m good.”

/thread

[Hitzel]

I will say one thing - when it comes to ease of use fighting fighting games, I think that joystick control (on a controller, not the D-pad) needs to be improved overall. Most of the casual players at my school or in my friend group or whatever that I’ve witnessed naturally use the joystick to attempt to control their characters, and as we all know trying to use one of those things is pretty clown shoes compared to a d-pad or stick.

I honestly think that some default option of joystick control that changes how joystick controls work in particular (without touching d-pad) could be given some thought:

[list]
[] Change the thresholds of the 8 primary directions.
[] Add some “smart” mechanics that make things like high/low blocking more intuitive.
[] Implement a jump button and disable up inputs on the joystick.
[] etc…
[/list]

I honestly feel that if things of this nature can be introduced to something like MVCI with the goal of making joystick controls less shitty while not being abusable by arcade stick players, the game can be made to feel a lot more approachable by the upper levels of casual and intermediate players or at the very least just be straight up more fun for casuals. Food for thought.

[Zachara]

OP reads like a Kotaku/Polygon article.
Uninformed and yet sure that they are completely correct.

I’ve been playing fighting games since I first played SF2 at the arcade (I was 7 years old). I’ve destroyed Arcade modes (Because they were the story modes), I moved on to beating friends and I’ve been to tournaments. In all that time (23 years) I can tell you one thing that has remained consistent.
My execution is fucking awful. I mean really, it’s atrocious. I am so inconsistent with my combos/links that it’s a running joke with my friends that I won’t ever land an infinite in any game despite my assurances that I can do them in training mode (Which is true, I can occasionally land them in training mode. xD)

I don’t go to a forum based around competitive play and say “Guys, I struggle at some of these things, don’t you think it would be better if they were easier?” for two reasons.
1 - Only I can improve my execution. Dumbing a game down doesn’t actually help me and in fact, only hinders the game overall.
2 - Because the people on said forum are going to call me lazy and/or dumb. And they would be right.

My execution/consistency fall squarely at my own feet and I wouldn’t want the game to be made simpler for my sake and in fact, there’s less chance of me playing it. I still play MvC2 to this day and I have never, not once, finished a ROM on a person and yet I love watching it done. Because I know the effort they’ve put in to learn that. Then you’ve got the flair of an open ended system that leads to things like Iron Man refly’s that get me rock hard every time.

It’s suggestions like the OP’s that make me not enjoy SFV all that much. Most characters don’t have 4+ buttons to use at a specific time, they have 1-2 buttons that they should press at all times. The combo system is already pretty easy mode. Links are stupid easy to the point where everyone has a simple b’n’b that even I don’t drop. If it weren’t dead, I’d likely be going back to SF4, play Adon and miss all of my IAJK’s (Okay, maybe land 1, maybe) and have hours of more fun than I do with SFV. (Sorry, started ranting about SFV instead)

It’s funny that this is being posted in the MvC:I forum. When UMvC3 dropped, I helped set up a local tournament. The guy running it said it was OK for this guy (I’m going to be nice and say he was “Special”) to play on Simple mode. This guy proceeded to mash every button but because no one had any idea how to fight Firebrand who was doing the craziest shit he won the first game. He got destroyed in every game after but the point is that he didn’t know what he was doing, he was just pressing all the buttons.

He got salty and left early.
Think that kinda sums up this whole thing…

[Pablo_the_Mex]

Good responses, guys. Real “SRK we da best” of you. Someone tries to relay what they think is wrong and y’all go measuring your dicks. No really, good job. You dun showed the OP but good.

^ Given this is SRK, that post is going to be immediately misunderstood by folks who insist they don’t turn into blubbering manchildren the second they see something that penetrates their little echo chamber, so let’s elaborate a bit. (And note, this is going to be a one-way convo: save your questions for after, then huck them into the trash, because I’m not replying to you.)

You can have or enjoy fighters with a high physical execution requirement.

While the garbage myth that said requirement is mandatory in well-made fighters is just that, a fucking myth, the level of execution you’re comfortable with is completely subjective. And hey, look at that: there are tons, and tons, and tons of fighters that already match your tastes.

Go play them instead of telling the OP to play another game. Or maybe do what SRKers say is the SRK thing and actually suck it up and learn these new accessible systems. Live up to that whole anti-scrub mentality you so often preach but rarely practice.

You can acknowledge flaws in the scene and its games and still be a part of that scene.

I see this shit all the time whenever I decide I need some adversity in my life and take a gander at SRK’s toxic, vile forums: the idea that if someone doesn’t like some long-established thing in fighting games, they simply must not know competitive play, tournaments, ranbats, etc. Not that it matters for someone to have gone to Evo when they talk about the things in fighting games they (dis)like, but newsflash: when I went to Evo, and when I went to various Canada Cups, I always spoke to people who had similar ideas to the OP.

(Betchu anything “how many made top 8” is the next thing on your minds, you fucking clowns.)

It’s hilarious to see SRKers attack the Smash scene for admittedly idiotic things like not allowing Hitbox controllers or items and the like, then become just as fickle as that fucking scene while acting superior. And being much less successful to boot, unless y’all want to deny the numbers and hype that just-as-fickle scene has brought to your events.

Even then, I’m pretty sure Smashers still consider pro-item and pro-Hitbox advocates to be part of their scene.

Hating the shit fighting games do doesn’t mean you hate fighting games.

Street Fighter 4 is garbage. Hot, messy, steamy garbage, in all its iterations. Yeah, it produced some hype tourney moments thanks to some amazing players. Yeah, I played it at ranbats and when I went to tournaments, even though I was always more excited for other games. SF5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 ever was even in 5’s current problematic state, and I haven’t played nearly as much as 5 as I have of 4 yet. You can hate shit fighting games do, hell even specific fighters, and still want to play them.

This idiotic idea that you cannot find fault in something you enjoy is the second-most infuriating thing about gamers, of any fandom. You can think 3S parries are super dumb and still have fun with the game and like Daigo’s parrying of Wong’s SA2.

(The most infuriating thing is Gamergate and how it turns out a lot of gamers are “alt right,” ie, misogynist neo nazis, in case you were curious.)

Y’all wear this flimsy, fragile veil of pride about fighters, and when someone voices criticism, concern, or so much as suggests something new, you cry AHVB tears so intensely you don’t even need a battery to build that meter.

Protip: introspection, self-reflection, self-awareness, and just the slightest bit of an open mind when posts like the OP’s comes along will go along way to growing your scene and making these forums a better place.

Or keep being one of the internet’s worst places until the end of time. Your call.

Later.

Who did this to you? Was it Dr. B?!?!

[NickRocks]

Mvc2 controls are simple af

[ArtVandelay]

Your everyday casual gets destroyed in those “simplified” games from the early 90’s. Simple or layered, it DOES NOT MATTER, its a mind set of dedication over one that just wants to have fun. If they can’t accept getting their shit pushed in as a part of having that fun then they should cease playing against more skilled players.

sure an experienced SF2 player is gonna trounce a casual.
sure.
thats not the point though.
the point is getting someone who’s never played a fighter, to get them to play.
you want accessibility.
old fighters had that. new fighters dont. on average.

and i knew that fellow SRKers who all consider themselves well versed in fighters and may have the the fighting game genre as their fav genre werent gonna see what i’m trying to get at.
i’m saying, that most folks nowadays dont have fighting games as their fav genre.
and those people arent gonna spend countless hours in training mode hammering complex stuff into their muscle memory. that notion is a turn off to them.

you guys are seeing things from our side of the fence and not theirs. you and i dont mind complexity, but they do.
its psychological.
in their minds, learning a ton of stuff, especially having to do it in training mode, is a hurdle they dont wanna jump over. its a turn off.

if you take Sf2, and take SF4…put em side by side, and ask someone who’s never played a fighter before…they are not gonna gravitate to SF4.

if you sit down next to a friend on your couch and try to teach them both games…once they hear you say “oh and you gotta spend 2 weeks to a month getting the muscle memory down in training mode to learn how to FADC…then you gotta spend another month to hammer down in training mode how to link a hit xx fadc xx ultra because its necessary to help you win since everyone else does it for 50% damage …etc etc, its something you cant skip to be able to compete with others.”

you aint getting that casual friend enthusiastic about playing SF4 at all.

you friend will be like "What about SF2? Do i have to spend any time in training mode?"
you’ll be like "nope."
and your friend will be like "No time in training mode, spending months every day repeating the same hand movements like in the other game? which tbh sounds really boring."
you "nope. matter of fact…the game has no training mode at all."
your friend "so i can just learn the game while i’m having fun playing against you?"
you "yup."
your friend "lets play SF2."
you "sure you dont wanna play SF4?"
friend “yeah, no thanks. i’m good.”

/thread

I made a friend of mine destroy his SNES controller by tiger shotting his ass for 10 straight games on SF2 Turbo - HF.

I think you don’t quite remember how hard it is to do an uppercut, a combo or even a fucking fireball in these games and how pissed people would get for getting zoned to shit.

SF4 does a much better job at giving you instant gratification through their dumbass ultra combos and mashable everythings.
It’s only at the intermediate levels where you realize how hard SF4 is going to get when you dive deeper into it.
Side by side, for a beginner, SF4 is easy as shit compared to SF2.

[angelpalm]

OP reads like a Kotaku/Polygon article.
Uninformed and yet sure that they are completely correct.

It’s funny that this is being posted in the MvC:I forum. When UMvC3 dropped, I helped set up a local tournament. The guy running it said it was OK for this guy (I’m going to be nice and say he was “Special”) to play on Simple mode. This guy proceeded to mash every button but because no one had any idea how to fight Firebrand who was doing the craziest shit he won the first game. He got destroyed in every game after but the point is that he didn’t know what he was doing, he was just pressing all the buttons.

He got salty and left early.
Think that kinda sums up this whole thing…

Pretty much the same pussy ass entitlement shit that we get from being more “inclusive” of all these baby soft dudes from different shitty communities like smash and what not. But that is how those people work in general. Act all friendly, then start trying to make new rules and then bam, next thing you know you are dying from small pox…

[Chingachgook]

OP reads like a Kotaku/Polygon article.
Uninformed and yet sure that they are completely correct.

He got salty and left early.
Think that kinda sums up this whole thing…

Going to jump in real quick. As I don’t want you to think I left salty in case that was a connecting point in your last post…?

Most likely I wasn’t clear from my last post, so I created some confusion.

I haven’t left, as I’m still reading the thread. If people wanted to continue to discussion directly I invited them to PM me.

As most of what is being said by some players is being repeated and or miss-represented. Not looking to repeat myself over and over. But I’m still reading And will continue to do it for my own self education.

If you asking something and I haven’t responded probably because I felt it was already asked and I answered it. Just re-ead the thread. (I have many times lol )

If you REALLY don’t think I answered it and want an answer to what seems like my crazy thinking then PM me.

[KiyaaKing]

Once again, it’s come to “add simple mode” vs “git gud”. So since this thread is still up in the MVCI section let me ask this: do you think THIS franchise, out of all possible choices, is the one to petition for casual-friendly gameplay?

This game will attract a huge casual fanbase. This game will have Marvel characters. It will attract fans of the movies, tv shows, cartoons, comics and other media these characters have appeared in. Marvel brand is much bigger now than it was 5 years ago when Marvel 3 hit.

You’re right, it will attract casuals. They will buy the game because of everything you said. They will NOT buy it for the simple gameplay. That is what I’m saying. This entire thread was focused on the gameplay aspect of why casuals don’t buy enough fighting games. I’m simply stating that this is the wrong game to address this with.

[angelpalm]

**Dudes whole line of reasoning is flawed. Like I think the 360 version of Garou gave everyone a macroed combo that for some characters hit for like 60% of your health or more. Guess what, you could have that auto win button and still lose to a competent player 9 times out of ten because they actually are skilled at the fundamentals of the game and can do a lot more than execute fucking combos which you new jacks seem to be so interested in.

All flash and no soul, which is typical for your kind. All you ppl do is steal shit from others anyway. Steal shit and own everything but still have the nerve to want for more and make excuses about why you don’t have it. Fuck outta here.**

[Hawkingbird]

P4A has one button combos, and two button DP and casuals didn’t stick around. The fans of the RPG got their fill with the wall of text story mode and never touched the game again. Arc System fans stuck with it.

[d3v]

When people talk “accessibility” What exactly are folks asking for? What is the end goal or the ideal control scheme or inputs to make a fighting game accessible? What exactly is it that COD or MOBA’s do that fighting game’s don’t? because I usually see people tote those games as the benchmark for accessibility. And how can fighters implement such things without killing what makes a fighting game a fighting game?

I’m not familiar with Moba’s so I’ll look at FPS games. Game like COD from what I’ve played. Are very easy to pick up and play due to a large part of that is how the game is designed from the ground up. At least with COD4 and beyond. They didn’t try to make it accessible after the fact. The game is designed to be accessible in almost every way. Skill takes a back seat to accessibility in most FPS games. That is how no matter how nice you are in a FPS. You can still always end up eating a noobtoob to kill your streak. Getting shot from behind because of a lucky spawn by a foe. Getting popped by a foe that was camped out in a obscure location, guns with low recoil or SMGs that allow you to just spray and spray etc.

These things make it so that even a complete noob always has a fighting chance even from jump. Also the pacing of the game. You lose a match in Street Fighter? You have to wait a bit before joining another game so you have to eat that loss and dwell on it for a bit. COD? You die, and you are back in the fight within seconds. Also what I think is a game changer is the Kill Cam. A lil feature in the game that makes all the difference. It’s like a in game coach. You get killed and are frustrated? Just take a look at the kill cam and it’ll show you exactly how you died. With this on the fly information you can adapt and learn as you play. You saw in the kill cam you got killed by a camper in a certain location? Well now you know to check your corners and becareful when you are in that area because that’s where he like to camp. And you can use that knowledge to your advantage immediately.

Where as in a fighter we have replay features. But that’s after you get your ass kicked in a match. And this is stupid, but most casuals are not going to go out of their way to utilize the replay feature in a fighter. Where as in COD, that stuff is pretty much auto pilot and stuff is replayed in game right when they are killed so they can learn and adapt right then and there. So maybe fighters can implement features that make it easier to learn the game to a competent level while you are playing. Because while some inputs can be hard in fighters. I think the core issue for folks is the learning curve. Because we had a very accessible fighter in Rising Thunder and well even it produced this legendary salty moment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0WetHkYVtw

This isn’t from complex inputs being hard. This is from simply being outplayed, and being frustrated from not being able to adapt and figure out how to fight against the character. Even though the inputs are easy as fuck. The basics of fighter games such as spacing, footsies, the fireball game, completely escapes this guy.

COD is a meh example though since the game has stagnated in its various incarnations (and uses a progression system that rewards playtime over actual skill). The better example would be Overwatch, which did a bang up job of making people do what SFV tried to - have people pay full price for a multiplayer only game, and even give it GotY awards.

The thing is, Overwatch does dial down the mechanical execution requirements of the genre (alongside generally sinplifying it, i.e. fuck ammo management since y’all have infinite ammo). A good number of the heroes are designed so you don’t really need to aim and one even has an Ultimate (aka a Super) that gives him a temporary aimbot. Heck, most Ults don’t really need good aiming to take out the other team.

Additionally, the need for advanced movement has been generally toned down, with abilities given to cover those things instead. Why rocket jump when the character with the rocket launcher already has a jetpack.

The game itself empasizes the team based nature to make it impossible for one single player to carry the game.

The result is a game where even non-FPS fans can do reasonably well in and enjoy, even at low levels.

The issue of course is that applying these to a fighting game would probably ruffle more feathers and rustle more jimmies that it did in the FPS genre.

[BB_Hoody]

When people talk “accessibility” What exactly are folks asking for? What is the end goal or the ideal control scheme or inputs to make a fighting game accessible? What exactly is it that COD or MOBA’s do that fighting game’s don’t? because I usually see people tote those games as the benchmark for accessibility. And how can fighters implement such things without killing what makes a fighting game a fighting game?

I’m not familiar with Moba’s so I’ll look at FPS games. Game like COD from what I’ve played. Are very easy to pick up and play due to a large part of that is how the game is designed from the ground up. At least with COD4 and beyond. They didn’t try to make it accessible after the fact. The game is designed to be accessible in almost every way. Skill takes a back seat to accessibility in most FPS games. That is how no matter how nice you are in a FPS. You can still always end up eating a noobtoob to kill your streak. Getting shot from behind because of a lucky spawn by a foe. Getting popped by a foe that was camped out in a obscure location, guns with low recoil or SMGs that allow you to just spray and spray etc.

These things make it so that even a complete noob always has a fighting chance even from jump. Also the pacing of the game. You lose a match in Street Fighter? You have to wait a bit before joining another game so you have to eat that loss and dwell on it for a bit. COD? You die, and you are back in the fight within seconds. Also what I think is a game changer is the Kill Cam. A lil feature in the game that makes all the difference. It’s like a in game coach. You get killed and are frustrated? Just take a look at the kill cam and it’ll show you exactly how you died. With this on the fly information you can adapt and learn as you play. You saw in the kill cam you got killed by a camper in a certain location? Well now you know to check your corners and becareful when you are in that area because that’s where he like to camp. And you can use that knowledge to your advantage immediately.

Where as in a fighter we have replay features. But that’s after you get your ass kicked in a match. And this is stupid, but most casuals are not going to go out of their way to utilize the replay feature in a fighter. Where as in COD, that stuff is pretty much auto pilot and stuff is replayed in game right when they are killed so they can learn and adapt right then and there. So maybe fighters can implement features that make it easier to learn the game to a competent level while you are playing. Because while some inputs can be hard in fighters. I think the core issue for folks is the learning curve. Because we had a very accessible fighter in Rising Thunder and well even it produced this legendary salty moment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0WetHkYVtw

This isn’t from complex inputs being hard. This is from simply being outplayed, and being frustrated from not being able to adapt and figure out how to fight against the character. Even though the inputs are easy as fuck. The basics of fighter games such as spacing, footsies, the fireball game, completely escapes this guy.

COD is a meh example though since the game has stagnated in its various incarnations (and uses a progression system that rewards playtime over actual skill). The better example would be Overwatch, which did a bang up job of making people do what SFV tried to - have people pay full price for a multiplayer only game, and even give it GotY awards.

The thing is, Overwatch does dial down the mechanical execution requirements of the genre (alongside generally sinplifying it, i.e. fuck ammo management since y’all have infinite ammo). A good number of the heroes are designed so you don’t really need to aim and one even has an Ultimate (aka a Super) that gives him a temporary aimbot. Heck, most Ults don’t really need good aiming to take out the other team.

Additionally, the need for advanced movement has been generally toned down, with abilities given to cover those things instead. Why rocket jump when the character with the rocket launcher already has a jetpack.

The game itself empasizes the team based nature to make it impossible for one single player to carry the game.

The result is a game where even non-FPS fans can do reasonably well in and enjoy, even at low levels.

The issue of course is that applying these to a fighting game would probably ruffle more feathers and rustle more jimmies that it did in the FPS genre.

Maybe make a harcore mode in which the game plays traditionally and is the tournament standard?. And have these features in a standard mode for fighters?

[d3v]

When people talk “accessibility” What exactly are folks asking for? What is the end goal or the ideal control scheme or inputs to make a fighting game accessible? What exactly is it that COD or MOBA’s do that fighting game’s don’t? because I usually see people tote those games as the benchmark for accessibility. And how can fighters implement such things without killing what makes a fighting game a fighting game?

I’m not familiar with Moba’s so I’ll look at FPS games. Game like COD from what I’ve played. Are very easy to pick up and play due to a large part of that is how the game is designed from the ground up. At least with COD4 and beyond. They didn’t try to make it accessible after the fact. The game is designed to be accessible in almost every way. Skill takes a back seat to accessibility in most FPS games. That is how no matter how nice you are in a FPS. You can still always end up eating a noobtoob to kill your streak. Getting shot from behind because of a lucky spawn by a foe. Getting popped by a foe that was camped out in a obscure location, guns with low recoil or SMGs that allow you to just spray and spray etc.

These things make it so that even a complete noob always has a fighting chance even from jump. Also the pacing of the game. You lose a match in Street Fighter? You have to wait a bit before joining another game so you have to eat that loss and dwell on it for a bit. COD? You die, and you are back in the fight within seconds. Also what I think is a game changer is the Kill Cam. A lil feature in the game that makes all the difference. It’s like a in game coach. You get killed and are frustrated? Just take a look at the kill cam and it’ll show you exactly how you died. With this on the fly information you can adapt and learn as you play. You saw in the kill cam you got killed by a camper in a certain location? Well now you know to check your corners and becareful when you are in that area because that’s where he like to camp. And you can use that knowledge to your advantage immediately.

Where as in a fighter we have replay features. But that’s after you get your ass kicked in a match. And this is stupid, but most casuals are not going to go out of their way to utilize the replay feature in a fighter. Where as in COD, that stuff is pretty much auto pilot and stuff is replayed in game right when they are killed so they can learn and adapt right then and there. So maybe fighters can implement features that make it easier to learn the game to a competent level while you are playing. Because while some inputs can be hard in fighters. I think the core issue for folks is the learning curve. Because we had a very accessible fighter in Rising Thunder and well even it produced this legendary salty moment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0WetHkYVtw

This isn’t from complex inputs being hard. This is from simply being outplayed, and being frustrated from not being able to adapt and figure out how to fight against the character. Even though the inputs are easy as fuck. The basics of fighter games such as spacing, footsies, the fireball game, completely escapes this guy.

COD is a meh example though since the game has stagnated in its various incarnations (and uses a progression system that rewards playtime over actual skill). The better example would be Overwatch, which did a bang up job of making people do what SFV tried to - have people pay full price for a multiplayer only game, and even give it GotY awards.

The thing is, Overwatch does dial down the mechanical execution requirements of the genre (alongside generally sinplifying it, i.e. fuck ammo management since y’all have infinite ammo). A good number of the heroes are designed so you don’t really need to aim and one even has an Ultimate (aka a Super) that gives him a temporary aimbot. Heck, most Ults don’t really need good aiming to take out the other team.

Additionally, the need for advanced movement has been generally toned down, with abilities given to cover those things instead. Why rocket jump when the character with the rocket launcher already has a jetpack.

The game itself empasizes the team based nature to make it impossible for one single player to carry the game.

The result is a game where even non-FPS fans can do reasonably well in and enjoy, even at low levels.

The issue of course is that applying these to a fighting game would probably ruffle more feathers and rustle more jimmies that it did in the FPS genre.

Maybe make a harcore mode in which the game plays traditionally and is the tournament standard?. And have these features in a standard mode for fighters?

That’s a horrible idea since it’s sending the message that the “standard” version of the game isn’t competitively viable, while at the same time, dividing the community.

[StockyJam]

Your everyday casual gets destroyed in those “simplified” games from the early 90’s. Simple or layered, it DOES NOT MATTER, its a mind set of dedication over one that just wants to have fun. If they can’t accept getting their shit pushed in as a part of having that fun then they should cease playing against more skilled players.

sure an experienced SF2 player is gonna trounce a casual.
sure.
thats not the point though.
the point is getting someone who’s never played a fighter, to get them to play.
you want accessibility.
old fighters had that. new fighters dont. on average.

and i knew that fellow SRKers who all consider themselves well versed in fighters and may have the the fighting game genre as their fav genre werent gonna see what i’m trying to get at.
i’m saying, that most folks nowadays dont have fighting games as their fav genre.
and those people arent gonna spend countless hours in training mode hammering complex stuff into their muscle memory. that notion is a turn off to them.

you guys are seeing things from our side of the fence and not theirs. you and i dont mind complexity, but they do.
its psychological.
in their minds, learning a ton of stuff, especially having to do it in training mode, is a hurdle they dont wanna jump over. its a turn off.

if you take Sf2, and take SF4…put em side by side, and ask someone who’s never played a fighter before…they are not gonna gravitate to SF4.

if you sit down next to a friend on your couch and try to teach them both games…once they hear you say “oh and you gotta spend 2 weeks to a month getting the muscle memory down in training mode to learn how to FADC…then you gotta spend another month to hammer down in training mode how to link a hit xx fadc xx ultra because its necessary to help you win since everyone else does it for 50% damage …etc etc, its something you cant skip to be able to compete with others.”

you aint getting that casual friend enthusiastic about playing SF4 at all.

you friend will be like "What about SF2? Do i have to spend any time in training mode?"
you’ll be like "nope."
and your friend will be like "No time in training mode, spending months every day repeating the same hand movements like in the other game? which tbh sounds really boring."
you "nope. matter of fact…the game has no training mode at all."
your friend "so i can just learn the game while i’m having fun playing against you?"
you "yup."
your friend "lets play SF2."
you "sure you dont wanna play SF4?"
friend “yeah, no thanks. i’m good.”

/thread

I made a friend of mine destroy his SNES controller by tiger shotting his ass for 10 straight games on SF2 Turbo - HF.

I think you don’t quite remember how hard it is to do an uppercut, a combo or even a fucking fireball in these games and how pissed people would get for getting zoned to shit.

SF4 does a much better job at giving you instant gratification through their dumbass ultra combos and mashable everythings.
It’s only at the intermediate levels where you realize how hard SF4 is going to get when you dive deeper into it.
Side by side, for a beginner, SF4 is easy as shit compared to SF2.

i’m not talking about learning fundamentals…i’m talking about learning the muscle memory regarding the complexity of combos of the more modern fighters.
guilty gear and roman cancels or forced roman cancels. that type of stuff.