Your right he did not directly say, if you don’t like it leave. However that is basically the result because it pits hardcore versus casual players as a zero sum game. As I seemed obtuse I would ask the same lets not be obtuse and realize that if properly positioned casual can be serviced and it will not be at the expense of the hardcore players. It can be done to cater to both positively.
I’ll try to say it another way, the hardcore don’t have to suffer because the developers try to reach more people.
As he points out Marvel already did this, with Simple-Mode. The only ask is that simple-mode is improved.
It was not sweat off the hardcore players back that simple-mode was included.
It just did not go far enough to create a more player-accessibility so more people could be introduced to our wonderful genre. And slowly incorporated into it.
Thank you. Your proved my point EXACTLY. Hardcore mindset is basically “If you don’t like it than leave”…
And many people like us are doing EXACTLY that, we are leaving. But it doesn’t have to be that way, the development of the game can be inclusive to both hardcore players and casual players, and nothing is wrong with that, actually it would make a better product and better environment.
Thank you for proving my point… I’m not sure FGC can get past the small minded thinking IMHO.
You know how we know you’re retarded and dont care about fighting games?
You think that capcom made the game more accessible to people through simple mode as opposed to all the other shitty mechanics the game put in so life would be more fun at the lower levels.
Thays how we know there’s nothing devs can really do to get you to play with us.
Are just to accept OG ideas and OG acceptance that it’s good enough? I liked my Iphone 3 but I sure like my Iphone 5 better.
If we are willing to accept that arcade mode is good enough, and not adapt to the times and obvious industry changes than we can expect the same poor results of sales that fighting games are currently experiencing.
I for one want to fight for the casual players, so we increase our chance to convert some of them into hardcore players.
However old school attitudes of good enough are proving in lower and lower sales year after year it is in fact not good enough.
We can slightly-help the casual audience and protect that hardcore players.
We can slightly-help the casual audience and increase the amount of hardcore players we have and grow scenes.
But two issues have to be fixed to do this, “player-accessibility” and “player-stickiness”
And fixing these two issues don’t have to be at the expense of the hardcore.
I don’t believe that you’re a hardcore fighting game player because Marvel vs. Capcom 3 is one of the most accessible fighting games ever made. There’s no way that you used to play Street Fighter 2 at any kind of decent level and are having trouble with Marvel vs. Capcom 3 I just don’t believe it.
This is exactly my worry. The hardcore scene sees people who want to play a fighting game as they have to be hardcore?
Why make this a zero sum game with only one winner, the hardcore?
When we have the potential of satisfied casual players and satisfied hardcore players.
Because this zero sum game is actually hurting the FGC in growth. The sales results year after year are worse and worse, with an occasional bump like SF4. However other genre’s are booming and growing their fanbase.
We can use tools to win over those new players. And those tools don’t have to be at the expense of the hardcore.
Lol no worries you don’t have to believe me, because it’s not about me.
It’s about making a better product for all of us to enjoy.
I agree MvC3 is one of the most player-accessible fighting game. However it did not go far enough to allow casual players to just have fun with special moves. Still required was some ability to do a complex input.
In my OP I try not to make player-accessibility a one-issue-silver bullet. Because it’s not a single solution, it’s a suite of multiple solutions, from giving players access to the moves, to giving campaign mode, survival mode, team-play and more.
But many times these modes are after-thoughts never building past a lame 1.0 version of the PvE mode.
Physical execution is just as integral to a well designed fighting game as the psychological strategic aspect, sacrificing one in favor of the other is lazy design and usually results in a shitty game. SF4 required some tight execution despite having a ton of leniency and being much easier to play than older fighting games yet strategically it was kind of shallow, UMVC3 was just shallow on both the execution and strategy which is why it’s a running joke like Divekick. I love the fact that these 2 games exponentially increased the number of people playing fighting games, I love fighting games and hope other people can participate in that enjoyment, I don’t want to go back to the early 00’s where we had a slowly dying scene, but I hate how the influx of new players watered down and dictate the way games I want to play are made which is a trend I don’t see ending anytime soon.
Punishing those who made the FGC what it is today to curry favor of the new casual blood flowing into the scene is business as usual, can’t stop capitalism however, SF5 for all it’s obvious flaws is a step in the right direction between finding the middle ground between the vets who want a meaty experience to jump into and a curious newbie who likes the idea of fighting someone 1V1. The best solution I can think of is to allow developers to make a game as esoteric as they choose, but includ on the main menu options to watch tutorial videos breaking down fighting game terminology, basic fighting game concepts like what a crossup is, and demonstrating basic general strategies explaining why they work, in fact David Sirlin did just that for ST on CCC2, but to alter the integrity of the mechanics themselves to appease players unwilling to put in time and effort learning systems is just rewarding laziness.
You can show someone a door, but they have to choose to walk through it right?
MVC: I game play so far looks a lot like UMVC3, and the fact that Capcom said they want to make it more casual than UMVC3 which already bent over backwards to make the player feel like a special snowflake is troubling, I’m hoping it doesn’t end up to be a game that rewards bad decisions and recklessness like UMVC3, but I’m not going to hold my breath considering what’s been shown so far.
No problem.
Eventhubs,gamefaqs,and capcom unity are happy to welcome another to their rank of people with no desire to get better and prefer design to cater to them at a much lower barrier for entry.
You’ll find plenty of like minded people in said areas also harping on inaccuracies about people leaving fighting games en mass because they are simply too difficult.
You’ve already outed yourself as a liar saying it’s overly complicated, when you can follow design progression from pre sf4 to post all making adjustments to make becoming competent even easier.
You either grasp the basic concepts of fighting games or you don’t.
You have people like brolylegs who don’t bitch about overly complicated controls and he uses his fucking mouth because he has to.
I had a friend with severe physical disabilities who was the top Abel on the global leader boards at one point (r.i.p. Omar) who couldn’t use an arcade stick due to his disabilities and played better then you ever will with a 360 analog joystick.
You know so little about this scene it bothers me.
This small place here, shoryuken.com, is for enthusiasts of versus mode. You know that one thing Street Fighter 2 did in a special way above all other games? The thing about it is that you’re only going to find people who love playing against other people because that’s what these games are designed to do. We aren’t “hardcore”. A lot of the people who post here play at online, or in a weekly session and don’t go to tournaments? Now wtf do you call a person who enjoys learning games, playing them as best possible but not showing up to a single tournament?
That person is an amateur, a hobbyist and an enthusiast. By not competing that person is basically a casual player. What your dumb ass and schmurdascene’s want us to do is care about you not wanting to play with us because you have some issue we can’t fucking control with these types of games. Almost all of the shit you’ve suggested has done nothing to bring people to us. It’ll also continue not bringing anybody over because what you guys want is some shitty single player game that plays like a fighting game so you can say you played a fighting game? Guess what? You wouldn’t be playing a fighting game if you were just playing a computer.
You know why? Because nobody has and nobody will ever make the case that Boss Rush mode in the handle Castlevania games are Fighting Games. Megaman doesn’t suddenly turn into a fighting game when you have to beat the 8 game bosses before you fight Dr. Wily. As much as you need to tell yourself that if we just make things easy enough you’ll play, you won’t.
Sorry. No matter how much companies try to get you to care, you still don’t. You think the controllers are the one thing stopping you from playing but there are millions of other “casual” gamers playing games with more complicated inputs. Even then for a solid decade it seems that people were able to do our difficult motions just fucking fine but suddenly all of you are unable to do them. Hell you motherfuckers left Tekken Tag Tournament 2 hanging and that has shit execution compared to UMvC3. MKX can’t get people at their tournaments even with the ESL throwing money at them with their easy execution and story mode. What’s worse is that once Sirlin puts out Fantasy Strike, you know that fighting game he is doing with one button specials and all that (which hilariously has moves with invincibility which were removed from SF5 to appease fuckers like YOU), you won’t fucking play that either but we’ll be the ones to really fuck with it.
You just won’t. When you do we’ll welcome you with open arms and help you get as good as we can make you. If you get better than us we’ll ask you for help and see what you’re doing different than us. But until you make that mental leap, you are only a fan of fighting games in the same way that “MMA” fans thought that Ronda Rousey was unbeatable or who think all that Tyson had as a boxer was just raw punching power.
Take a break, have fun, keep making retarded posts on SRK. Do whatever it is you need to shift blame on us over the games we didn’t design that make you feel bad. After you’re done with that and really wanna learn, then don’t worry, we would’ve still been here playing all the shitty games that were made to get you to play, whopping your ass in them, helping you get better but having held the scene down so that you had a place to come to.
I want us to have a deeper more meaningful conversation than just skating on the surface.
As you say Capcom did make the game more accessible with simple mode. I saw this work myself when I hosted my sons birthday party with ten other 9 year olds. Simple mode allowed them all to enjoy the game a bit more, they had access to moves they enjoyed. The can improve simple mode even further.
However we all, me included, don’t want them to water down the game play for hardcore players. The way to protect hardcore players is to make simple-mode more robust with macos for casual players. This could lesson the need to adjust the hardcore gameplay mechanics we want to protect so much.
I’ll always continue to play fighters. I even stopped playing that FPS today to play some Marvel. However I’m not blind to the changes in the industry and how gamers at large today have changed. I truly believe if we make thoughtfull home for them, and protect the hardcore player needs, we can grow the FGC and make a better home for all of us.
what will this accomplish in keeping fighting games alive exactly?
You know what happens when noobs like you who get simple mode macros show up to a tourney?
They get fucking DESTROYED LMAO. Because simple mode macros will NEVEREVEREVER be the most optimized damaging combos. You cant macro shit like mvc2 rom infinite or ahvb or fly combos into commando. And what happens when u noobs get destroyed? U pout and go home and get on srk and type “fighting games arent acceptable” because you dont want to take the time to get actually good, you want false validation from the game that yes you are awesome heres ur gold star. Simple mode has always been good enough to beat the computer but it will never be competition viable. Sorry to crush ur dreams bro. Im convinced this is a troll thread too now
The reason you couldn’t access the moves you wanted is because you suck at fighting games.
What hardcore players say to you is true…no matter how accessible a competitive game is made there will always be a group that will master it so well that casual can’t or won’t even bother to catch up.
Everyone wants to be like Mike…but most aren’t willing to put in the work.
Thing about trends and trying to catch the casual fire in your pocket I give you exhibit A.
Socom tried to cater to the cod crowd and grow it audience. So they completely changed what people loved about those games. a tactical 3rd person shooter that was heavily dependent on teamwork and you valuing that life at the beginning of the round. Casuals didn’t want to wait 4 minutes between rounds watching their teammates play… they wanted to mash X and get right back in there only to be gunned down within 15 seconds. The devs made Socom 4 centered around lame modes and the ability to respawn and the whole fucking game died. Socom which was at one point Sonys most popular first party ip online is completely dead because casuals do what they do, they bought the game, played it for a week or 2 and never played it again.
I recently got a friend to buy SFV. I am introducing him to the scene and how to properly play a fighter vs another person as opposed to the computer… I beat his ass for like 3 hours today and told him what he was doing wrong, why sweep is a terrible button to push constantly in neutral, why frame data is important, why dropping combos is important ect ect. I want him to be apart of the scene as it is, for him to fall in love with the game as it is, not transform this thing into something that will make him feel better. If I lose him then so be it… everything isn’t meant for everyone.
It’s not a troll thread. Wish it was, but if you haven’t noticed developers ARE changing the game mechanics to make our games more “Player-accessible” However they are doing at the expense of the hardcore players by changing the game-mechanics, thus hurting what the hardcore respects, we respect the high level player-ability and player-skill.
So If I’m trolling than the game developers are the king of trolls because they are the ones watering down the game-mechanics.
However, if we ask that a solution for PvE and PvP are met with a distinct line in the sand, such as a ROBUST improved simple-mode, that can help the noobs perform all the moves, yet it also protect the hardcore game mechanics that we don’t want watered down anymore.
Because what is the developer solution today? It’s water down the game-mechanics. Why don’t we keep the game-mechanics at the hardcore level, in exchange for having noobs the ability to access all the special moves in the game with simple one or two button push? This way the noobs get accessibility, and the hardcore game mechanics are preserved.
In addition It can help grow the playerbase having easy accessibility to all the moves. With a larger playerbase increases the chance some people will convert to hardcore. We all start as casuals and then grow into a hardcore player. To help this we need a larger player base, especially because the sales of fighting games are trending questionably.
You right, noobs who think macros would win them a tournament are kidding themselves. Besides simple-mode is not allowed at most tournaments.
However those noobs are the 80% that buy the game and are the fuel to fund the next game.
We should cultivate our PvE player base, to increase participation and we can all benefit from a larger playerbase.
I’m 100% okay with exploring ways to make fighters more accessible as long as they don’t ruin the genre for the hardcore player. The thing is though, you can’t just throw in some macros and be done with it. That just changes the new player experience from “button mashing normals and getting rekt” to “button mashing macros and getting rekt.” You gotta teach them how the game is meant to be played in a way that will sink in. The execution barrier is such a small piece of the puzzle that it’s ultimately insignificant. And pads are a viable input device. There is no requirement to get a stick in order to enjoy fighters.
If this motherfucker says hardcore one more fucking time…
PvE elements. Like I said before, you just want boss rush mode so you can say you totally beat God Ryu by doing it with x y or z character and you’re so cool because of it. I mean i get it. I basically did everything you could do in SC3 except for that shitty mode that would corrupt your save data.
But none of the easy controls or massive single player nonsense has saved that series nor increase the amount of players in the scene for it.
“But you dont get it. It’ll really work if you do it to this one game i like thats the one that will break through and suddenly fightets will be huge and esports man”.
Exactly. Done correctly it would actually protect the hardcore game-engine that the hardcore players want, specifically keeping things like 1-frame Inputs.
However we now have those 1-frame inputs expanded to 3 in the name of accessibility.
When we could have kept the 1-frame input mechanic, and just provided noobs an improved expanded 2.0 version of simple-mode.
The funny thing is that, the Marvel games have always been meant to be casual friendly, with chain combos, and what basically work as 1 button specials (assists). It’s usually how the players break open the game that make it more challenging to play competitively.
I like the fact that somehow PVE is supposed to make something a “huge esport” when the latter has nothing to do with PVE.