The Current State of the World thread

General Discussion
481

I hate how people use the term “un American”, when describing anything that goes against their ignorant beliefs. What does America mean to you?

Is it the physical land enclosed in the borders? If that’s the case then I’d say pollution and irresponsibility towards the environment is “Un American”.

Is it the government, and our freedom to vote for our leaders? Then I’d say that our current circumstance where we basically have “legal bribery” and outright manipulation of the ballot boxes like Bush in '08 is “Un American”.

Is it our capitalist system of economy? No it isn’t because in this system, the main goal is to make profits, even if that means moving production to other countries where labor is cheaper. That doesn’t sound American to me. Corporations show no allegiance to any nation. They go where they can make the most profits, pay the least taxes, and find the most loopholes.

Does “America” mean including all of the people who live in the United States? Not just the “elite” socio economic class, or a certain physical archetype or appearance, but EVERYONE regardless of color, creed or race? If this is the case then I’d say that the Occupy Movement which is fighting against the control of the corporatocracy and all of the affects it has on the people, is pretty damn American. And you know what else? Military personnel seem to think so too. I think they know a thing or two about what it means to be American.

Who is talking about communism in here? Not even the Occupy movement is communist.

They are a “populist apolitical” movement, meaning they do not represent any political party, or any system of government.

482

The problem is not the people of “wall street” its the institution itself, but as of yet there is no better **VALID **alternative. The problem with the protest is no viable leadership. Many of the “proofs” throughout this thread generalize far to much or are riddled with slanters. What is wall street? People. Most of what is humaity is personal choice. America isn’t a democracy, Democracy “pure” is not good.

Here’s a question America is the best system or institue other wise why are so many illegals here? No other country hands out citizenship, so why have a baby here? America must be doing something right.

Illegals are chasing money there is nothing noble about them. Which means they are a threat to citizens doing the same thing. Bad buisnesses should not have been bailed out poorly run institutions should have crashed with everything else. You cannot spend your way out of a recession, a cursory reason why stimulous money did not work, it was a flimsy try at grabbing the public/power. In community terms this admin. is a fraud.

America should care about itself (own citizens)more than about others (illegals, noncitizens ect…) America should protect its own first.

Parties were warned against when the first president left office, it (America) has become something it wasn’t intended to be.

Cops, Firefighters, Soldiers all choose and are paid to do thier jobs they are not heroes, last I checked all heroes are dead.

These are facts.

Everything outside of origin story in regards to a person is choice. Deal with it and see how the world reacts to you that is the real test.

Do not be surprised is a rule I stick to, what is meant by this is that whenever YOU are making a choice and it is poor one, after you have evaluated a situation and then you recieve a negative reaction by society and ***its ***rules do not be suprised.

Idealism, no_cigar does not a valid claim make it just means you learned from the media well, ALL of the media.

Question widely but be cautious as most media are in one camp or the other at least in America, but media outlets world wide are all in the buisness of entertainment which is a corporation, they are not your friends. Parties are not your friends they will try to get you.

Here is a good example of party belief:

WHEN REPUBLICANS USE FEAR TO RULE YOU, THEY ARE RUTHLESS TYRANTS

WHEN DEMOCRATS USE FEAR TO RULE YOU, THEY ARE PROGRESSIVE CHAMPIONS

483

I could make a counter point to what you said about illegals coming here. Most of them are not well educated and are able to find work here, and because of the exchange rate of currency and the fact that they don’t have to pay taxes on their income they make more profit than they would in their home country. Well just like uneducated illegals flock here, there are educated people who have moved to other countries because of other countries’ progressive and open minded attitudes.

Illegals are just a scape goat. I don’t blame them for the plight of America. I blame the deregulation of banks/investment firms during the Reagan era that continues to this day that caused all of the major economic crisis’ in the past three decades, and I blame the fractional reserve banking system that creates money out of debt. I blame the “legal bribery” which is lobbying, and that there is too much money affecting the political system, and I blame our economic reliance on foreign wars (undeclared and shadow wars) and our dependence on the exploitation of resources and people in “third world” countries.

But mostly I blame the general population’s unwillingness first of all to realize that there our major problems affecting our national and global situation, and also to do our part as individuals to solve these problems.

Once again, I’m non partisan in my views, just like the whole Occupy movement. Please try and refute any of the problems I just pointed out as matters of “ideals”. You can’t because they’re not, they are actual problems.

What are we supposed to learn from if not media? Do you realize that any physical form of information is media or a medium? Ranging from middle school textbooks to radical propaganda. Obviously you have to watch out for biased opinions, and try and learn the true facts, which is why I avoid the mainstream media.

484

:rofl: Damn, that’s fucked up!

485

Please watch this video. It’s a recent interview with Brian Willson, a Vietnam war veteran and a hero. I never heard about him until today, but I’ll never forget this.

We really need to end all wars. I don’t care how much money our economy makes off of it, it isn’t right. There is no possible justification for genocide, and if we can’t see this by now in our day and age then we will remain lost.

486

Do So.

I agree with this.

Sources please.

They are a part of the problem or a smaller problem in a larger one akin to a cog in a clock.

This is not everything, one Reagan didn’t destroy everything if he had we would not have had some semblance of order up until this latest econ. crash.

I blame the “legal bribery” which is lobbying, and that there is too much money affecting the political system.
[/quote]

I agree that lobbying is a waste

Not so sure on exploitation give an example and not one where China or (presumably future India are not involved)

Lethargy is also a problem but without using the societal rules implemented good luck with change.

Thats fine.

Wouldn’t go that far most from various outlets for “news” as well as first hand accounts appear quite “leftist” in nature at first glance but you have to weed through a sea of dyphemism and euphymisms to get anywhere worthwhile and then when you do a leaderless multi voiced mob is there if any of these movements want to succeed they need a leader and fast. Someome needs to be an MLK minus the dying part all though a martyr would get great publicity, I am not kidding.

The problems listed throughout this thread are real enough, however the way you tackle them with suggestions are the high ideals or outright myth. Look at the summations of your posts crtically Ill say it again CRITICALLY that is not with “hippie”/activists/liberal/leftwing/progressive/ thoughts. Look at what your fellow posters have put down. Do not get swept up. Think rationaley and weigh BOTH sides you are using alot of ideals.

This was me being too ambiguous I meant the method with which you approach debate. Is media learned, also you learn from them all, that is your best chance at accuracy. The ones that you agree with you should be more suspicious of than the ones against or the ones that aren’t involved with your side at all.

Dont avoid embrace and make a rational decision when you have heard from everything examin your own thoughts from thier perspective as well.

487

The Question… I like what you said, in your last post.

No Cigar is passionate, and spot on in many ways.

The whole illegals thing is quite bad… given a system wherein there is even the slightest regard for national welfare as regards industry and economy. Sadly, however, even were we to remove the illegals from the equation, this would not be the case. Companies cannot reap the level of obscenely unjust profits that they insist are their right, through gainfully employing Americans. They could still reap obscenely unjust profits, mind, just not quite to the same rapacious level that exporting jobs overseas where exchange rates and less humane labor treatment will net them.

As it stands, the illegals come here, where there still exists some level of social safeguards that they might eek by better than in their own countries.

Countries that, like it or not, have been tampered with socially, politically, and most definitely economically by America, for the past hundred years.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

488

I can agree for the reasons but in America’s defense these claims are only secondarily about America and primamirly about their own countries. The problem is or rather a point going for America is that in America they can get a voice to protest and in many illegals home countries due to the level of corruption they cannot do the same or it’s not as effective. Which is a shame and I think many Americans take this for granted.

489

I’ll agree with you that some stuff I post might sound idealistic, but most of it can be supported by an understanding of science and psychology, and can be supported by research and case studies.

The overturn of Glass-Steagel under Reagan, and during Clinton’s presidency the Dodd-Frank act, let to increased speculation of banks/investment firms with less accountability. It all started during the Reagan era, he lowered taxes for the upper class greatly. And I believe there had been three crashes from the Reagan era up until the one in 2008.

Exploitation takes place all over the world. It’s been happening for the last hundred years at least under many different names. Imperialism, the the war for democracy, against the spread of communism, and most recently against terrorism.

I’m just copying and pasting what I posted previously somewhere else, because I’m tired. These are the names of political leaders in other countries, who were overthrown indirectly by the US government, and it’s agencies and people it hired, and the reasons for their assassinations.

Mohammed Mossadegh (Iran 1953; tried to stop exploitation of their oil), Jacobo Arbenz Guzman(Guatemala 1954; tried to stop exploitation of their land and fruit), Jaime Roldos (Ecuador 1981; …oil), Omar Torrijos (Panama 1981; got Panama canal back from US from President Carter, later assassinated), and it goes on and on. Also more recently in Afghanistan we went in in order to get control of their oil, and their opium fields.

If you don’t know much about how the United States exploits other countries I recommend the book “The Secret History of the American Empire” by John Perkins, and listening to some interviews of him to get a basic idea. It might be a little “colored”, but you will definitely gain a better understanding of how exploitation occurs. And a really good documentary explaining the economic crisis of 2008, and why it occurred I recommend “Inside Job” (2010) by Charles Ferguson. It deals with a lot of facts, and imo is very good. I think it’s pretty moderate or non partisan, not strongly for any political ideology.

Anyways I’m too tired to rebuttal or refute anything or make a solid argument, so lets just agree that there’s problems that need to be fixed. I’ll try and keep my idealism to a minimum.

EXCEPT when it comes to wars. There is no need for them any more, I don’t care how much profit it creates. It’s not worth the lives it destroys.

490

So you say, “there is no war worth fighting for?”

I agree with this statement, but I also acknowledge that there hasn’t been a real threat worth fighting for yet in a very long time. So I can’t 100% agree with the first half of your 2nd to last sentence.

THey really do take things for granted. It however does not help that our leaders say that the American vacation is not up for grabs.

I would like to know, your ideas on a solution for this? How can these countries fix themselves? Is it even possible for them to do so?

491

lots of wars had a purpose. Case in point: the US Civil War

492

Yeah, the South had the money, the North didn’t. Ending slavery was a bonus and a propaganda cause, not the reality. Not too far off from the wars we’ve been recently. The big difference is that it was on our own soil.

493

only an idiot would think wars were good. However only an idiot would also think that all wars are bad. Sometimes some people are just big enough assholes that you have to deal with them with force. I will agree that the US hasn’t been in a well deserved war in awhile.

494

What was the death total for that war? And it was for ignorant purposes.

It already happened, but we need to learn from that. The average person back then was not as intelligent as today. And yet we are still goaded into believing that we need to fight for this reason, or we need to defend this cause, when in reality we’re just being influenced by propaganda to support the people in power’s agenda.

More people are killed every year by peanut allergies than by terrorism. More people are killed by heart disease every year in the US, than by terrorism in the world. And yet take a look at the budget. The money allotted to the military budget is much higher than any money given for funding to actual problems facing our society in our own country.

495

No you are wrong. Only a healthy functioning human being would believe all wars are bad. Only a dysfunctional person would believe that wars can be justified. That’s why you see veterans who truly appreciate the value of life, because they have seen the horrors of war. Those who have seen it first hand have seen what it really means. Once they witness the truth, they can no longer return to their old ways of thinking, their old programming.

You’re programmed. Like it or not. So am I. So is everyone.

Only the apathetical monsters created by our modern society can believe that [S]genocide[/S] murder is acceptable.

I liked this because I thought you were being sarcastic.

496

are you sure about that? My cousin joined the marines at the worst possible time, fought in a war he didn’t approve off, and saw a lot of fucked up things.

he came back, and was more empathetic, but he still believed that some wars are justified and worth fighting for. the current ones just aren’t worth it.

from all the articles ive read about veterans turning around and saying war is wrong, are those taht come home and see what they fought wasn’t worth it. Like the guy in the article you posted above. ASk any WW2 veteran, if you are lucky enough to meet one. And ask him if the war was worth it, especially ask the ones who fought in the European theather.

you are right though, war is glorified in our society. Its funny though, all these patriots who support the war on terror wouldn’t even lay down thier life, let alone kill for the cause.

497

You’re right, not all people experience this. If you haven’t watched the entire interview with Brian Willson, I encourage it.

So are you saying apathy is a correct perspective? I would assume you don’t mean it that way. What does apathy accomplish? Apathy, meaning people not caring about others, or possibly even not caring about themselves. I can’t really think of one good thing that can come from apathy really. Maybe you can help me out.

I think it’s not too far off to say that apathy might be one of the root causes for our problems in our society. Apathy that allows us as Americans (or other people around the world) to accept the fact that there are problems, and to not take responsibility. It’s what letting us be controlled in our own nation. It’s what is making us accept the numerous undeclared wars that occur throughout the world. It’s what is making it acceptable to us that there are people being exploited in other countries, so that we can continue our over consumption. It is what is causing us not to care that there are people being taken advantage of by the system, and it causes us not to care about the injustices that are occurring because of our own negligence as a nation.

Once people aware of what is really going on, the only thing that is stopping them from trying to do something about it is apathy.

498

Current state of the world ? The World has been worse than what we have at the moment for like thousands of years, Think we have it bad now ?

Pre world was 1 there were only 12 Democracies in the World
In the 1930s 25% of America and Britain were unemployed, people resorted to growing fruit and veg in there back garden to either sell or eat.

Thats just 2 examples I could go on all day.

We have it easy.

499

Think of it this way if it helps humans are animals albeit on the smarter end of the spectrum. Animals will fight for things that suit them, mates, land (territory ect.)
We do and have done the same. We are just using the tools to achieve the same thing it’s in our animal nature. To further compund the problem we (humans) develope an us them mentality which is brought on by world society since forever if your biblical then Cain and Able. War then is our animalistic version of the same thing that less rational animals do daily.

Now war in regards to humanity has typicaly been a spoils system. BUt it is under the same principle and often times it is alittle more grey area then black or white. If war is declared then what should be suggested? The occupie simply let the occupier come in and and do what it pleases. You make mention that it isn’t justified and yet if the place where you live was invaded you would fight tooth and nail or you would die in the dirt. Should South Korea let North Korea steam roll them when it first touched off after WWII? Most rationale people would fight. Justification is nothing more than a positive slanter however a just action would be to defend oneself. Also remember when a war does occur there is usually a build up.
On both sides and sometimes the Occupier is the victim, an example of this would be Prussia leading up to the Conflict Napolean the III. France were the aggressors in Europe for a long time (WWII makes people forget this as their rep got seriously damaged as cowardly French) When WWI kicked off it was France instigating against Prussia again trying to get revenge for thier loss.
Agains if we hadn’t of shown up Prussia would have steam rolled France again, however France had allies and made a poor treaty (Versailles) hence Prussia now Germany got a revenge match that never should have come to pass. Germany would have won this time as well however we outspent them and thier oil.

Now I know that was abit lengthy but the point is France was the Aggressor, Germany was the victim unfortunately for France Prussia had Bismark in the early conflicts and that man was the image of a sly old fox. The folly was he called WWI and WWII and it came to pass and he despised wars as he believed things could be reasoned out between nations and in his absences we saw WW’s unfold.

Both WW’s were bad but we commonly attribute them only to the “aggressor” but the aggressor was in fact not the loser. WWII was abit more cut and dry we had a severly flawed Idealist takeing common sense and reason away from the masses and instead giving them a situation that would be regrettable world wide.

Was it justified that the US got involved?
We could say no, but the alternative is not that the US would speaking Japanese and Europe German but that wolrdwide we would have lost much more in that sense the “justification” Was the world would have lost more than gained. War is a ratio system (CVS2) or truth seperated into weaker and stronger cases and while it is deplorable I would say it occurs when one or both parties feel thier backs are against the wall.

I’ve known WWII vets and they always said "it was what needed to be done, not what was justified but what needed to be done."
I’ve also had millitary members in my own family who have been active and seen warfare.
Not one reveled in it, it was simply there job, they saw many great things and also horrible things but there was no justification involved it simply was what is.

Some yes, others that I have spoke with arrive somewhere in the middle of pure patriotism and absolute indifference. Remember they have to be built up to do this as in most modern countries, unlike other animals we must curb our violence to survive in society in military you are a tool and if you break your friends fall and no one wants to let someone down. I would say when they come back they try to readjust to how it was how it was the conflict comes from the programming to get to a tool level to get something done and return back to society.

Thats how survival works.

Genocide is genocide, war is war they are different, be rational. No one here said genocide is acceptable, I didn’t see any African Ethinic cleansers or Nazi posts but I could check.

500

You have it easy maybe. Not everyone has it easy. There’s 1 billion people starving in the world. Think about that. There’s exploitation, corruption, if you took the time to actually see what is going on around us, you would realize there are problems. I encourage you to look through some stuff in this thread, you will find that most of us can agree that there are major issues affecting the world.

We know more now (humans as a whole) more than we have ever known before. We know that there is enough food to feed everyone, we have the means to produce enough food, clean water, and clean renewable energy for everyone. Now we have no excuses to continue in our same behavior as we have in the past, because that would just be irresponsible.

We have come a long way, and there have been people just like yourself who have accepted the situation of the time. There were people who accepted racism and sexism, wars, and lots of other injustices. And there were people who opposed them, and thanks to them we have made many advances in society, but we are far from done.