The Comprehensive Firebrand Thread: Lab Notes for Beginners (almost done)

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
81

Why would you TK Bon Voyage?..

Jill’s only nerf was to her level 3 infinite blockstun setup, which is a good change just like removing Tenderizer’s synergy with Firebrand’s unblockable is a good change. It’s not like Jill got real, tangible nerfs in Ultimate that made her worse. Infinite blockstring setups should be regarded as a glitch. If you want to cite the people you play against as evidence for your argument, include gameplay videos. Otherwise I only care about quality tournament play, and Zak Bennet is probably our best Firebrand representative out there. I hope he’s coming to Evo.

Do you mean j.L into Hell Dive L? Hell Dive L only connects into j.L from superjump height, and isn’t very safe.

Firebrand would not be able to abuse his height like MODOK for two reasons:

  1. MODOK is only able to get as high as he can due to Battering Ram. Hell Rise, as I envision it, would be more like an upward air dash in functionality, so it would cap at normal screen height.
  2. Part of MODOK’s abuse is that he can block while flying. Firebrand can’t.

There are uses for Chaos Tide, but not for the L and M inputs. I agree that a solo unblockable on an incoming character for 3 bars is pretty fair, but he doesn’t really need it. Bon Voyage to air throw is really hard to react to reliably in incoming characters, and Bon Voyage to s.L, pinning assist call, unblockable swoop is even more difficult to respond to. For most characters, 3 bars for an unblockable setup on an incoming character is fair, but Firebrand’s low damage and already very strong options on incoming characters make it unworthy. Moreover, he can often set up unblockables just by going into Demon Missile H right as his opponent dies, depending on the hyper that killed them (THCs).

I also doubt whether he can set up the unblockable on incoming characters. I’ve never tried it, though. I’m happy with my 0 meter unblockable setups. :wink:

It just makes good sense to make it a soft knockdown. It’s a small change that wouldn’t do anything but increase his team synergy, which is a good thing IMO.

I love Firebrand. Somehow people think that because I want to flesh out a character concept, I don’t like the character. It’s very puzzling to me. I did this same thing with Vanilla Dormammu, and I got the same kinds of responses. “Dormammu is already really good - maybe you should pick someone else if you don’t like him?” Thankfully, Capcom thought more like I do, and Ultimate Dormammu received the vast majority of the buffs I wanted him to from Ultimate. Like Firebrand, they were all buffs to make him a more balanced character with good playability and flow.

I also play a very unique team that essentially has no assists functioning for it, and there are very few characters that can even possibly survive without assists backing them while also maintaining any semblance of an offense. Firebrand is one of those characters.

I think individual character tier ratings are a waste of time. People should listen to Viscant and Seth Killian on this.

“Point only” characters are bad game design. Every character should have something valuable to offer in every position on a team. Every character should be good on point and have good assists. This game is about creativity, and Capcom should encourage creative teams.

It’s not about needing buffs. It’s about making him into a well-developed character.

I think he means qcb.H after you’ve superjumped, so you sometimes go backward instead of advancing. It’s pretty safe, and messes with your opponent’s prediction skills. If you’re always charging forward, you become much easier to deal with. qcb.H, tap back to wall cling, is a pretty good idea some of the time. No hyper is going to catch qcb.H on reaction. It recovers very fast.

There are assists to respond to forward techs. You should spend more time in training mode.

82

tk bon voyage is plus mega frames on block. grounded its super negative. plus it starts up faster, more reliable to catch people off guard.

the only assist i can think of that would help against forward techs is sentinel, and firebrand doesnt protect assists well at all.

QCB.H puts u in flight, akuma hyper, dorm hyper, Doc strange hyper, gimlet, shinku hadoken, bolts of baltakk, Psionic blaster L, Disruptah L, will all catch firebrand.
in a super jump only gimlet and SOV would catch and depending on where you are, shinkuu could hit too.

maybe if firebrand could cancel his command dashes like viper with S… then he would be better.

also, back techs will get hit by firebrand solo unblockable. so no problems there.

83

You definitely need to spend more time in training mode. Firebrand has A LOT of set-ups and resets. Not all of them rely on hard knock down. In fact, most of them don.t And the ones that do? You predict the forward tech and adapt to make it work.

84

I don’t think there is going to be another version of Marvel, so I guess we need to work with what we have.

85

Ummm firebrand is a vortex character… most of his set ups are off of hard knockdowns. Yes some of them don’t require it but it is much eaiser to set up off of a hard knockdown, then a soft knockdown or air reset. You may need to practice more, if you didn’t know that. :slight_smile:

86

You can’t expect Firebrand to have commonplace unblockable setups that cover all techs. He’s a reset character. Resets involve reads. Otherwise that ish would be too free.

This character is good, but as has been said many a time people in this game are lazy. They may not want to spend the lab time developing tight setups so they’ll just derp it out with somebody else. Doesn’t mean Firebrand is any less good.

I would love for them to make QBC+L have the same function in the air as it does the ground and just make Flight into the old air QBC+L, that’d be awesome, but it’s not going to happen. If Capcom patches the game it’s most likely going to be small tweaks. Gotta play the game you have, not the game you want. You’ll be less salty for it.

He also has an unblockable that punishes forward techs off bon voyage with parabolic arrows anyway iirc.

87

That’s pretty poor logic. “some of them don’t require it but it is much easier”? The game isn’t about how easy it is. Firebrand has crazy amounts of resets and if you think they all rely on hard knock down, then you don’t have very much knowledge of the character.

88

read it again i never said they all rely on hard knockdowns. his best ones are off of hard knockdowns. 100% inescapable ones are off of hard knockdowns. resets are 50/50 to begin with.

89

Again, why the fuck would you TK Bon Voyage? It’s not going to start up any sooner than any other Bon Voyage done in the air. Bon Voyage has notable startup time, so why would you TK it right in front of your opponent’s face? You’re better off just dashing forward and using s.L.

Do you even read what you respond to? I explicitly said aerial qcb.H.

90

first sir… its a frame trap… if you frame trap them with st. L and tk bon voyage… you will catch them 90% of the time… because there is a delay, and they are frame trapped nothing they can do. try it out… it works… it does start up faster too… but not by much… or try to use it in a blockstring… without Cr.H you will catch opponents a lot too.

aerial qcb.H still gets hit by gimlet and SOV… read the last line of that quote… i addressed your point. we can chat civilly without you getting heated. maybe you didnt understand my point but it is clearly there. sorry for the miscommunication. I respect your ideas and points, please do the same for me.

91

Obviously is was an exaggeration, but he has way more non-hard knockdown resets than hard knockdown.

Your claim of forward techs ruining his set-ups is the main thing I’m concerned about though. If anything, neutral techs are the only thing that mess up set-ups (Such as the solo unblockable)

Of course Firebrand doesn’t have an answer to things like SoV or Gimlet. That’s the whole point of them. If every character had an answer to them, then what would be the point of using them? This is more about playing the match-up instead of complaining that you don’t have the tools. You’re fighting Dr. Strange/Hawkeye/Akuma/Dormammu/etc with meter? Be patient and bait it. The point of those characters is that they’re better with meter.

Firebrand is a really good character. One look at his move set and it is obvious how good his movement, resets, and mix-ups are. But he’s not auto-pilot though. You have to learn your opponents habits to win with him. It’s not that Firebrand is easy to figure out, it’s the player that gets figured out.You just need to give him the right assists (Oh no limitations when it comes to building a team!) and learn your opponent’s habits and he doesn’t even let the opponent play

92

s.L is +6 on block. Aerial Bon Voyage has 13 startup frames, plus you have 3 pre-jump frames to go through, putting you at -10 if you have absolutely perfect execution. That’s not a frame trap, that’s a recipe for death from pretty much any button mashing at close quarters. If you want to do a single s.L, you’re better off just walking forward a step and trying to throw your opponent.

All of the Hell Dive moves are 15 frames total. Gimlet takes 9 frames to complete, meaning Hawkeye has to react within 4 frames of the move starting to punish Firebrand’s movement. In other words, it’s not humanly possible. Hawkeye has to guess, and that’s not a bad place for Firebrand to be, and definitely doesn’t make it “unsafe”. Spell of Vishanti is in the same box, but it’s even slower than Gimlet. You are underestimating how fast Firebrand’s mobility options are.

Also, I would not doubt Firebrand’s ability to dodge Gimlet with a Hell Dive L at superjump height. I have not tested it, but what leads me to think it’s possible is:

  1. Morrigan can simply duck under Gimlet to evade it.
  2. I once had an opponent Gimlet, XFC Gimlet while I was doing Demon Missile H, and I dodged both of them (this was one of the most unintentionally hype moments I’ve had in this game).
  3. Hard tagging evades Gimlet.
  4. I recall someone saying that using Luminous Body on reaction to Gimlet makes it miss, but I’ve never tested it.

Besides, listing Gimlet and Spell of Vishanti, the two most punishing hypers in the game, as evidence that Hell Dive H isn’t safe for making Firebrand predictable is just ridiculous, even if your points are wrong.

93

I really don’t think Firebrand really NEEDS buffs. I just feel we haven’t explored enough of his options, such as his Bon Voyage tag setups. The problem with Firebrand is that he doesn’t really do damage more than anything else. Bon Voyage scales stuff too harshly on an already heavily scaled set of moves. His Dark Fire Super is nice and usually does a lot of universal damage, but that’s about it. He needs to start his combos off with a special of some sort and go from there to get anything remotely resembling good damage. It’s my belief that Firebrand shouldn’t be involved in combos if he can. My own team often uses ground Bon Voyage to tag to someone, or use someone on point, then DHC after a meter positive combo to either Dark Flame for damage or Luminous Body for Unblockable setups.

That said, if I had to give him buffs, I’d only give him little things. His moves have a higher minimum scaling, enough for him to do a solid 600K at least more often, as well as do tag in combos with his Luminous body better. Maybe increase his meter building slightly so that his BNB nets positive meter even if Bon Voyage doesn’t drag them cross the screen. That’s it.

94

I have to agree that I don’t feel Firebrand “needs” buffs, but it does bug me to have a character with bum moves in their set. Like Dorm’s 0D3C, Firebrand’s level 3, or Ryu’s Ren Hadouken. I have no idea what I’d change about Firebrand’s level 3 to make it better, more interesting, while still fair, though.

95

if you attempt that setup while using an assist, it works and leaves you in frame advantage… again its just another option for him.

regarding the second point… although firebrand has really fast mobility he isnt invincible while using hell dive/elevator… you can throw him through his startup frames especially since your at a disadvantage intially, (depending on what normal you cancelled it of off.) … in a long set, or if your opponent is really good at adapting, they will throw firebrand… because generally most firebrand players use only 2 of his elevators, and good firebrand players use all of the dives in some capacity.
Dodging Gimlet isnt hard, but if you don’t predict it, your most likely going to be hit.

Firebrand can become very predictable, and easy to read. especially in long sets. Guess what sir… its my opinion, and although i do believe opinions can be wrong, no one has proven it wrong yet… Just look up zac bennett at the FGTV house, he became predictable.

you don’t know everything about firebrand, you don’t even know the most… instead of refuting everything someone says, you should probably analyze it, and validate the right points and then begin to criticize the wrong ones… or else you look like the people in the Tier thread…

96

I may not have been playing Firebrand for long, and I don’t quite know the extent of the conversation, but why couldn’t you jL them and THEN Bon Voyage? Or is there some purpose I’m missing why that wouldn’t work? And what about Pushblock?

97

Jump L doesn’t combo to Bon Voyage unless you’re in Luminous. You can do j.L>j.M>BV, though.

98

I know that, but the conversation seems to be doing sL to air Bon Voyage as a frame trap, not a combo.

99

Zak Bennet brings is some new uses for Firebrand’s level 3 - well, at least no one has posted it here as far as I can tell, so it’s new for most of us here:

9:52:35, Bennet lands a full combo with Firebrand’s level 3 by trading between the helper’s L fireball and Firebrand’s M fireball. It builds back about 2 of the 3 meters it cost him and does 300K damage - pretty nice!

If you use it with an assist, then there’s no point in the Bon Voyage at all, since presumably the assist is hitting between your s.L and Bon Voyage so your frame advantage is positive, and you should just be dashing forward to hit your opponent. Your idea has absolutely no validity behind it, and the rest of your post has no content behind it.

The conversation is simply that NickofTime thought s.L to TKed Bon Voyage was somehow a frame trap, when really it’s just a sequence of moves that is likely to get your ass kicked because it has huge negative frame advantage. It’s not a frame trap in any way. s.L to j.L can possibly work. Just glancing at the numbers, it looks like a good way to open people up in corners. Mid-screen you’re probably going to have to dash forward after s.L to get the j.L to land, and at that point the numbers get a little too complex to figure out whether it’s a good idea.

100

I found that the lvl 3 combo set up works with dante’s jam assist. But I’m not sure what do after the Helpers Swoop. Am I supposed to press l first and then hell spitfire M first or vice-versa?