The Competition of Street Fighter X Tekken

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter x Tekken
1

In my opinion, Street Fighter X Tekken is the most competitively rewarding Capcom fighting IP to be released this generation.

In this thread I will enumerate the reasons why, but first let’s attempt to define what makes a game a good candidate for competitive play.

To what degree does the game reward skill?
How much does random chance effect the outcome of matches?
How often does a player win undeservedly?
What percentage of the time does the better player win?
What particular skills are involved in determining who wins and loses?
How balanced is the game overall?

The answers to these questions should lead you to a conclusive statement regarding the competitive viability of any game.

The basis for my position on SFxT’s competitive merit is due to its placement of skill values. Any given game will have a series of skills most important to achieving victory. In SFxT they are as follows in no particular order:
[LIST]
[]Decision making/problem solving
[/LIST]
[INDENT=2]Meter and health management[/INDENT]
[LIST]
[]Spacial awareness/judgement
[/LIST]
[INDENT=2]Zoning[/INDENT]
[LIST]
[]Ratio of observation to comprehension and application
[/LIST]
[INDENT=2]Observing and exploiting tendencies shown by your opponent[/INDENT]
[LIST]
[]Judgement of probability in response to observation
[/LIST]
[INDENT=2]Reads[/INDENT]
[LIST]
[]Reaction time
[/LIST]
[INDENT=2]Punishes[/INDENT]
[LIST]
[]Tactile dexterity
[/LIST]
[INDENT=2]Execution[/INDENT]
[LIST]
[*]Mental alertness and multitasking
[/LIST]
[INDENT=2]Dividing focus between multiple gameplay objectives at once[/INDENT]

You may observe that these skills are common among many fighting games. The difference between games is in what order of importance they are placed. SFxT in my opinion values decision making and problem solving above other skills. The player who manages their health and meter the most efficiently while also optimizing their damage output gains a great advantage. Following that I would place with others with near equality to eachother, perhaps placing slightly higher value on mental alertness and multitasking.

The reason I find this game to be a particularly excellent test of skill is that it cuts out as much uninvolved guessing as possible and in effect the better player is orders of magnitude more likely to win. There is a difference between “mind games” and simple guessing games. Correspondingly, in SFxT the value of okizeme is replaced by increased value of footsies skill. In my opinion, the ground game is the most dynamic element of Street Fighter, involving all aspects the series has held dear simultaneously, and is the best place to determine a victor. SFxT obliges this notion, and for that I believe it should receive a great deal more attention in the competitive scene.

Another thing I would like to address is the game’s notable lack of a comeback mechanic. I feel this allows it leaps and bounds in terms of competitiveness. Personally I have never enjoyed mechanics designed to facilitate comebacks. I believe they should be earned, and again, SFxT obliges. It is much more exciting to see a player turn a match around through a series of excellent moves and reads than it is to see a match go the other way in a matter of one shot. Many players excel at making comebacks against dire odds and in my opinion comeback mechanics don’t do them justice.

My judgement of a game’s competitive potential is based on how well solid, calculated, and thoughtful play is rewarded. Street Fighter X Tekken is a game that values gameplay incorporating those aspects above all else, and for that it should receive respect.

EDIT: Note that this post has been completely rewritten from its original composition. I felt comparing SFxT to other games was not constructive.

2

None of these are relevant in determining what makes a game competitive. A competitive game is any game that people play to win against other people at. Mario Party could be competitive if people decide to take it seriously.

How is this different than any other fighting game played at a high level?

You think those mixups are not a part of calculated play? Do you know how long people spend in training mode devising mixups? That sounds like calculated strategy to me.

Also, no mixup is unavoidable. Even in a 100% unblockable situation, the way to avoid such a setup would be to not allow your opponent to put you in that setup. It’s called mindgames. People will find high concept mixups in any game if they are motivated, even in shit like War Gods.

Re: x-factor. I don’t really play Marvel so I’m not going to go into much detail about this, but how often when watching high level footage do you see someone get their ass handed to them on a platter and then x-factor their anchor to go on and obliterate the entire opposing team? Not very often. This is because smart play will always come out on top against easy, braindead strategies. By the time the anchor is coming into the screen the other guy, if a good player, will have already organized a setup to fluster the opponent and trick them into getting hit. They won’t even give them enough time to pop x-factor.

You mean like ABC baby combo off of a jab for 400-500 damage as well as making one of your characters safe?

Absolutely, positively, yes. Player 1 chose to do something incredibly stupid in an obvious situation and did not consider the possibility that the opponent might try a random ultra. He failed to predict. He lost the mindgame and thus the match. Your reasoning is just scrubbiness hiding behind principles.

Baiting pokes with focus attacks is just a another form of whiff punishing. Whiff punishing without focus attacks exists in SF4 as well. Try doing random focus attacks in an SF4 match and see how far you get. The other guy will just walk up and throw or do an armour breaking move.

Getting into your opponent’s head is the backbone of all fighting game fundamentals. Footsies is absolutely not an exception to this. Your definition of footsie “skill” is intentionally vague and separate from mindgames because you don’t want to accept that mindgames are a part of fighting games. “Skill” is just your version of scrub honour. You are trying to call your loss to mindgames “randomness” in order to justify your lack of real skill.

None of your factors for winning or losing at Cross Tekken are different than any other fighting. So what, I ask you, makes SFxT so special?

The answer is nothing.

Any game can be a competitive game, but that does not mean that every game can be a GOOD competitive game.

SFxT is not a good competitive game.

3

I don’t see how you can make a legitimate argument about SF4’s competitive viability considering the number of players who have entered tournaments for the game and the fact that randoms have basically accomplished nothing.

Claiming that there was a little bit of character armor in Vanilla (Sagat maybe), Super (Honda maybe), AE (Yun probably) is kind of valid but I really can’t see any in AE2012.

why?

4

EDIT: Surprised to see you re-posted this in the Scrubquotes thread when you said *that. *Is that irony?

Okay, then what makes SFxT not a good competitive game? Because it isn’t as popular? If there’s nothing special about it, what makes MVC3 and SSFAE good competitive games in the same respect?
Please save the “it’s a badly designed fighting game” bullshit crutch rhetoric, since every fighting game can be leveled that criticism based on personal perspective/preference. I want specifics.
I’m curious to see how you answer this…I have a feeling it’s going to be funny.

5

Scrub Saibot

Ok, so why is SFxT a bad competitive game? SF4 has some of the biggest bullshit in a fighting game I’ve ever seen. Focus attacks, tons of mashing, comeback ultras, more 50/50’s than usual, unblockables, and other nonsense. I remember in an Excellent Adventures video where Mike Ross literally said Ibuki has no matchups, just a random vortex. That’s a pro player’s opinion.

I accept your argument that any fighter can be competitive, but I don’t see how SFxT can be a bad competitive game while SF4 is a good one. That engine has too much BS - way too much! You explain to me how Jyobin, a guy throwing out random SRK’s and ultras, is able to actually win games! Hell, didn’t he win at least one match off Daigo? I love watching the guy play, but he’s all over the place sometimes! Then there are BS characters like El Fuerte who are a product of the SF4 engine.

If SF4 is a good competitive game then SFxT has to be one as well; if SFxT is bad then so is SF4.

6

I completely agree with this thread, SF4 and MvC3 are more popular due to having almost no bad sides and almost nothing about them that the community can hate at this point besides SF4’s gameplay having things people don’t like but can move past like focus and ultra, and MvC3… well mvc3 had a DHC glich and infinites and super unbalanced characters and its super random… but its marvel so it could be practically unviable in a competitive setting and still be poplar/competitive.

7

haha, I love it when random people who don’t even play a game make random claims like this. First, you would barely get more than 300 damage for an ABC combo and a good portion of that damage would be in grey health. Second, baby combo lol. You need to understand that ABC and switch canceling makes this game a lot more footsie heavy. In AE you can eat a bunch of standing roundhouse from Adon and still comeback from behind, but in this game getting hit by 1 of his roundhouse would mean 300 of your health is gone. So my point is, even though chains are kinda stupid and aimed to help casual players, they don’t really make the game easier to play. On the contrary, it means players without good fundamentals and without advanced footsie knowledge will really struggle in this game (at higher levels of course).

Interesting point of view… Too bad you have zero arguments to back that up. :tup:

For the topic… While I agree with most of what Silph is trying to say, I don’t think this is the right attitude to have. Saying things like “my game is better than yours” can only isolate this community from the other ones. Just like the Tekken community has isolated itself by claiming their game was the hardest fighting game in the universe and that only the smartest and most skilled players on earth should be allowed to play it. /dramatisation

8

This thread can only end in pain and sadness. Well, at least make it interesting people.

9

Baiting

10

Y’all niggas clearly haven’t played KOF XIII…
Shame…
:smokin:

11

Combos starting from jabs or cross rushes generally cannot do 400-500 damage without being an extraordinarily inefficient use of meter.

If you seriously believe a player should be allowed a win because of one correct guess after being beaten in every other manner, I don’t think you belong in a discussion about competition. In a game of soccer if the home team is leading by 10 points to their opponent’s 3, a single goal on the away team’s part should not earn them a win, and it doesn’t. Comeback mechanics of this magnitude are awful for competitive play and I don’t see how a reasonable person could think otherwise.

I did make note that the footsies game is not entirely separate from the concept of reading your opponent. However, success in the neutral game is nowhere near as binary as guessing whether or not your opponent will backdash, DP, or block on wakeup. The footsies game is a much better way to decide a match than how many times your opponent guessed wrong after being knocked down.

I also made note that I am not vehemently opposed to the focus attack system. I just feel it subtracts from the traditional ground game. I personally like the mechanic, but feel that without it, more skill is required for victory across the board.

I only meant to imply that the game is fast-paced with creative wording. You clearly read this post determined to be a dick about it.

You’re completely missing the point. The objective of the post is to weigh the competitive merits of games, not determine whether they are capable of being played competitively at all. Again, you’re clearly intelligent enough to realize this and are just determined to be a prick.

I’m not saying it is not calculated play on the attacker’s part. The issue is that mixups as strong as those in Marvel remove the defenders part in the game. There is nothing wrong with a 50/50 mixup, but when that mixup alone can lose the defender the match outright, I don’t believe it to be good for the game. I feel that in offensive situations, the defender should be permitted some way to use his own skills to escape without removing the attacker’s earned advantage. There is no mental interaction between players in situations like these. It is nothing more than a guess on the part of the defender and I don’t support that. Many times it feels as though you’re playing against the game rather than your opponent in Marvel.

Concerning X-Factor, are you telling me you’ve never seen a Strider player rip through three character with level 3 X and Ouroboros? Just one example…

To be clear I think Marvel is a great game, and objectively speaking an excellent game for competitive play. The reason I think SFxT is competitively superior is that it has fewer random elements and solid players are less likely to lose on a fluke.

You seem to be assuming I’m basing my opinion on this matter on bias from two areas. One, that I’m salty, and two that I’m simply favoring SFxT because it is the game I currently play. I know many players such as yourself like to imply their superiority with nothing to back it up quite often, but I assure you these are not my motivations. I enjoy all three of these games, but my observation from experiences with them is that a victory in SFxT is rarely undeserved. I don’t mean to imply that SF4 and MvC3 are not good meters of skill. They are, but there is significantly better chance in these games to be “randomed out”.

12

Best competitive games of this generation IMO in order:
[LIST=1]
[]TTT2
[]KOF13
[]SFxT
[]AE2012
[*]UMVC3
[/LIST]
Guess what? The first three won’t be popular in the long run. Why? Because they’re consistent games and they’re honest. SFxT might be able to retrieve some limelight after Ver.2013 but that’s about it.

Most people’s definition of “hype” is just seeing people get hit with random shit and then punished to oblivion in UMVC3.

13

tl;dr warning
Whilst I understand where you’re coming from, please don’t try and disguise your (admittedly somewhat well-corroborated) opinion as a kind of fact.
Competitive “superiority” and “viability” are misnomers. Most, if not all fighting games available today have some kind of competitive viability, as the “competitiveness” of a game is determined by the players willing to take it seriously, not the mechanics available to the game. As for competitive “superiority”, this is purely an opinion.
There are barely any people playing SFxT as is. I should know, as I’m the guy that won’t shut up about how the only people left playing the game on Australian XBL are all scrubs that jump too much. This kind of talk is only going to alienate people, and SFxT-haters are going to point out this kind of attitude and turn people off the game even more, which is not what anyone wants.
On the flipside, as far as I’m concerned, there are only four reasons as to why anyone would dislike SFxT at this point.

  1. People are still mad salty over Capcom’s shady business practices (which is understandable)
  2. Gems are still treated with derision by many, specifically the existence of DLC gems (which ties into point 1, otherwise boost gems are fine)
  3. Bad representation at EVO arguably caused people to think that what we saw there (2v2, no gems, derp footsies into barely-any-damage ABC combos, time-outs all over the place) to think that was the be-all end-all of high-level SFxT gameplay, which isn’t really the case
  4. The game just doesn’t fit their style (you can’t really argue with this, but most people with this viewpoint on SFxT aren’t very vocal)

Point one does not prevent SFxT from being a good game, but if you don’t believe Capcom should get any profits from the purchase of this game, then by all means, go with that. I’m sure Capcom will have learned their lesson on this by now.
Point two and three are really just misconceptions, and really warrant that you check out the game. There are plenty of guys here that know how the game works, so if you don’t feel like playing the game, just watch dudes like JiBbo, RyRy and the like.
As for point four, well, that’s cool, man. Just remember that there’s a difference between a game being bad and a game being bad for you.
I think I’m done here.

14

What’s the point of making a huge wall of text to support an opinion that no one cares about. Why not simply focus on why you think your game is good instead of why other games are not as good? If the majority still thinks sfxt is a shitty game, why would you start with the “my game is better attitude?” It’s sort of ironic that these kinds of threads are made to give people more of an incentive to be more open-minded and try x game yet by trying to make your game look better, you are effectively creating a nearly duplicate effect except the tables shift toward excluding other games for emphasis on your game. You also have to realize that people primarily play games to have fun. You can have an extremely competitively-viable game, but if people do not enjoy it, then they will not play it. The fact that you said marvel is random to support sfxt being better is also laughable considering it’s not even true. If you meant randomness as in chaotic, stop trying to rewrite the dictionary. If a game is played competitively, it is a competitive game. In my eyes, a good competitive game is one that is played very competitively as it serves its purpose well in the sense of invoking COMPETITION. I also find it laughable how you act like Sfxt has no flaws either. If you list positive qualities (or qualities you find positive at least) and leave out the negatives, of course your game is going to look better.

I’m not picking any side here. I like to see communities grow, especially when the odds are against them in a sense (although I’m not sure if a free car is against a community), but this is definitely not the way to do it.

15

I suppose I came off a bit overly negative towards Marvel and SF4. I want to be clear I think they are both fantastic games. This post is somewhat of a rebuttal to the community’s illogical and often ignorant hatred for SFxT.

16

I get ya. The best thing is positive reinforcement. Comparing SFxT to other games is only going to make people think that you’re ragging out the other games. Just talk about SFxT’s merits, and hopefully, people will listen. :smiley:

17

When I said that SFxT is not a good competitive game, I should have worded it differently. I should have said “SFxT is a competitive game that is bad and not fun to play”. My reasons for this are the following:

-Easy jump ins that are difficult to punish with a standard SRK. This rewards people for being stupid and bypassing good footsies.
-Slow throws that are essentially useless.
-Mashy DPs that can be easily and safely be tag cancelled. You have very little reason not to.
-Easy peasy links means mashing buttons up close is viable.
-The game is fucking hideous, holy shit. Looks and sounds like absolutely garbage. It’s hard to get invested in something that is not aesthetically pleasing.
-Easy ABC combo that leads you get 300 damage and makes your guy safe.
-Stupid gems, some of which are only available through promotional events and DLC payment, which are cumbersome to set up and which fuck with tournament legitimacy

That’s the gist of it. For me, a game with these qualities is one that is not fun to play, even if it is competitively viable.

Your turn. Explain why these are bad. They are not bullshit just because you say so. Also, Mike Ross’ opinion is irrelevant. His being a pro player does not matter. You are using an appeal to authority, which is a rhetorical fallacy.

I played this game for two months and that’s more than enough time for me to decide I don’t like a game and to come up with reasons for why I don’t like it. Fuck you.

Also ABC combos are easy mode because they require no execution and give you way more benefit than they should. Hard combos are necessary during footsies because they keep you honest by forcing you to make deliberate conversions, not by throwing out jabs and getting dat free ABC. Watch the EVO top 4. Lots of easy ABC combos off of jabs.

In regards to being able to come back after eating a bunch of roundhouses by using an ultra… no, you really cant. Good players will see that coming and will not let you win with a random ultra. And ultras only take off 70% at the ABSOLUTE MOST (So we’re talking about 40-50 on average), and that’s against Seth, who has so many tools that he needs to take loads of damage for making the slightest mistake. That’s not enough for someone to be able to win an entire game after being beaten, not if the other guy was running a train like you say.

OP:

You strongly implied that footsies are separate from mindgames by undermining reads in favour of “footsies skill”. There is no difference between the two.

You don’t blindly guess if your opponent backdashes or something, you make reads based on their playstyle and their patterns. You are trying to make SF4 look more braindead than it really is.

You said competitively VIABLE. That means whether or not it is able to be played competitively regardless of merit. You are also trying to attack me with ad hominem by calling me a prick. That’s a rhetorical fallacy.

18

damn, this scene wants their hands held badly.

19

When you mentioned not being able to punish easy jump-ins with SRK I stopped reading. I’m glad I saved myself the trouble of reading that essay.

20

FUCK YOU DICK! YOU DON’T KNOOOOW~ ME!!! BACK YO BITCH ASS UP FO’ I GO ALL ABORIGINAL ON YO’ ASS!!!

In all seriousness I don’t even know what you mean by that…