You should try and train it. Out of the box i think nobody can do one hit confirms. st.HP has quite long cancel window and it’s actually one hit confirmable. It’s of course harder than 2 hit confirms but doable. Trick i use to make it easier - i always input st.HP, qcf, then confirm and if it hit you only need to press a button (or two button for EX). And if you can hitconfim st.HP without CC you will definitely be able to do it with CC, cause it’s flashier. So you will be able to use st.HP effectively on max range, not only in range where you can link st.LK.
I have been training it lately and have some progress.
I think Kolin is designed around idea of using stun and mobility, not to be a heavy hitter. So her crush counters main purpose i think is to give you that extra stun. And for that her st.HP and b.HK are quite good because they have good range and are safe.
CC also give extra V-meter. Together with 2-bar VT, usable V-skill and st.MK > st.HP > V-skill target combo it makes her build VT quite fast. Which also add to options to stun opponent.
Also she has parries, which make people mindful of pressing buttons. If she would also have fast, long reaching, safe, spammable CC with crazy damage in her st.HP that i think would make people too scary to press buttons.
People would be complaining about her st.HP as they do about Urien’s if not more because it’s faster.
And EX.Hands gives good damage combo.
Overall i believe we could have it much worse and it’s quite strong now.
Urien is build around ideas of good neutral and crazy comeback potential. Fishable damaging CC is consistent with that i think. And most people think that his st.HP is OP. So nerfstick may find him next season.
Yeah I’m talking about confirming the hit, like igogorek said, it has a larger cancel window than standard normals.
And you not being fast enough is ok since you can practice it. I had to do the same with Nash and confirming his CC s.HP. I set Counter Hit to random in training mode and just grind out the confirm.
I understand what you mean though, she doesn’t get any extra benefit of that CC aside from the generic stuff like extra damage and V-Gauge.
Yeah, I’m just awful at those one-hit confirms. I’ve practiced it with Laura and Chun who both have similar scenarios for those but even though I eventually managed to get a decent success percentage in training mode it wasn’t nearly 100% and it most certainly all fell apart in real matches. I’ll just have to work around it I suppose. Thanks for the input though.
You can start with aiming at 90% confirming block and xx% confirming hit and it would already be a good result. And then progress the goal. I personally will. There is no point on pushing yourself too much when learning a hard skill. =)
The st.hp CC is just bad in my eyes. I had a small convo with windalfr about it and needless to say he didn’t agree… but w/e about that.
If I’m doing st.hp in st.lk link range, but the st.hp crushes instead of regular hits… I lose damage.
That’s unacceptably bad as you have to use meter to convert and can’t use st.lk xx lp parabellum or whatever and you lose the damage from st.lk link as well, plus it’s just less autopilot and get your damage… don’t see how it can really be considered a good thing aside from the v meter gain… which is meh since her v trigger is 2 bars anyways.
this honestly makes no sense on why anyone would think st hp cc is a bad thing. if it CCs (if you can’t confirm the hit,) you can os to where the cancel to hp or ex parabellum only comes out late on the CC. if it regular hits you can still link into st lk and the late cancel won’t come out. however, you lose positional advantage if you don’t confirm this meterless. by doing st hp -> st lk xx lp parabellum instead of st hp xx hp parabellum, you sacrifice momentum (and stun) for an additional 2~4 damage. there’s no way the st lk is better unless you have the bar for ex and even then if you’re fishing for hits at this range, why not use cr mp? you don’t give up advantage it being +2 on block and not -2 like st hp, 2f faster, can confirm into st lk just as well and cr hp easily on counterhit with no CC to worry about.
not to mention the added benefit of being able to juggle into hp or ex parabellum if st hp CCs an airborne attack or a backdash/jump os… and CC punishes on long winded reversals like ken/akuma ex dp for example. optimal cc punish here would be mk dandy step xx st hp -> st hp xx etc which does more damage than st hk CC.
Um… more execution for very few extra dividends? I’m not buying it. As far as the cr.mp instead of the st.hp:
Cr.mp does less damage and has less range. Less range means it’s easier to be thrown out of, less damage is less damage.
I mean I get it. If you do this and this and this and that while osing this and this and that… then st.hp with a cc on it becomes marginally better than without… but in a game about simplicity I just want it simple. A nice long ranged shimmy poke that is safe on block but gives good dividends on normal hit while also being decently fast and having a decent conversion range isn’t something that a lot of characters have in sf5.
But it’s not actually as a shimmy that the problem usually occurs, it’s usually during blockstrings that it occurs and then, yes, you have to late cancel os the move while also covering for regular hit… it’s just a bit involved when it could easily just give a CC that doesn’t push the opponent super far away, but still doesn’t give huge frame advantage to dash in… as it is the CC component only really serves to complicate the move to give it about 10% more strength and losing 60% functionality unless you OS.
how is a kd and + frames on dash up just a few extra dividends? In a momentum heavy game no less. it’s not even execution intensive and fairly easy to practice reacting to if you’re too lazy to OS. at the range you’re using st hp to link st lk, cr mp works just as well. i personally don’t use cr mp to shimmy as i use st hp correctly even in “blockstrings” outside of shimmy sequences so damage isn’t an issue for me, I’m just trying to help you out.
all I’m saying is this isn’t a problem with st hp on counter hit, but with you.
St. HP CC is the odd one out for Kolin (in the SFV meta) since she doesn’t get much extra.
I can see why it’s weird, but honestly, it’s not a big deal.
Longer cancel window, reel-back might allow for some VS pressure. It’s fine, just work with it.
On a different note, I am really enjoying the learning experience with Kolin.
She has pressure tools all over the screen, which is something I underestimated when I picked her up.
It also made me realise one of my biggest flaws as a player.
I just couldn’t deal with people walking back all the time, doing nothing, when playing Mika or Alex.
But with Kolin I can apply pressure with Hailstorm to make them uncomfortable from far away, controling their movement.
I can’t stress enough how much that opened my eyes, and it made me more aware of the opponent’s options.
necalli has it much worse with his fierce button ccs. instead of grounded stomp combo, he has to end it early with airborne hit stomp (xx super if mk) dp or disc guidance
there’s plenty of CCs that dont lead to massive damage dash up combos. cc HP into qcf HP corner push + knockdown + v bar is nothing to complain about. my problem is that there are a handful interesting hard/lab intensive characters like this one and chun, when its smarter competitively to go with the more simple characters that give you more of a reliable return on your lab time. in the case of kolin tho i’m really liking the extra dimension that her counters give her, eating people’s v reversals with ex counter feels so good lol and definitely puts people on tilt
When watching replays i often see people do on block: max range st.MP xx LP.Hail where hand connects on block. Poongko does it sometimes and Majorboy does this a lot. Are they just abusing people’s lack of matchup knowledge or is that some tech i don’t understand? From what i know after LP.Hail’s hand is blocked opponent can use 6f for guaranteed hit (didn’t test 7f) and it prevents Icicle to come out, so it can’t hit him on recovery. And i didn’t test it but i think there are a lot more options for opponent to do: sweep and even if Icicle hit, Kolin can’t followup; walk and grab, … But most opponents just sit and block.
With some conditioning it is fairly achievable. The thing is that if the opponent reacted too slowly, they would get hit by the icecle and just knowing that makes them hesitate for a fraction of a second which makes this thing work sometimes. It is like Ken’s and Laura’s V-skills, yeah they are punishable but the surprise factor still allows them to work sometimes.
It is basically what Criminal Upper was saying up, you can’t think static with Kolin.
Boils down to how trigger happy Kolin is with her V-Skill I guess. I lost pretty badly to a Sim yesterday who didn’t really do any fancy stuff but he was patient enough to wait for my V-Skill attempts (Kolin has to use it prematurely to counter limbs) and then punish me afterwards. That’s pretty much her only way of getting in as fireball and EX fireball cover the air and the ground so you just have to play mind games in the limb vs. V-Skill matchup.
What I wouldn’t recommend is going for teleport shenanigans. If Kolin can see them coming you’re eating a counter or a V-Skill for free. You have to play classic keepaway Dhalsim.
Getting back to the game just because Kolin looked so interesting to play!
And i am liking so far at training mode, but i have some doubts, anyone could help?
What is the reliable anti fireball tech? Just jumping? Her backstep special ( not used to the names yet) dont seem to reliable to me.
She has 2 counter moves, v skill and QCB punch. Which is better for what situation?
Her Ice-hail nullifies 1-hit fireballs if you hit it. It also grants free pressure.
Light Vanity Step x punch goes through fireballs, but the range is picky, very situational.
V-skill moves forward and has more start-up, it’s non-specific to a button (low/high etc.) so it’s the go to counter imo.
It’s very good at catching neutral jumpers who press buttons, or buttonsy, formulaic players.
At certain ranges it will also anti-air an empty jump-in.
Counter is a hard read. It leaves you in a CC state if it whiffs.
Pull it out when you want to make a hard read.
It has good range, countering moves at ranges where the actual move wouldn’t even hit, so you can sort of space yourself at a range where it’s hard to get CCd.