The 3rd or 4th God?

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
61

I disagree about the fake Royal. At least vs Blanka. Ryu doesn’t have to predict a jump at all, it’s the other way around. Blanka has to constantly guess is it real is it fake.

If you do a fake and I see a fireball animation. (1) I think it’s real and I jump you get a guaranteed second fireball that I land on or a dragon or other AA if I’m close. It doesn’t matter if I press a button or not as someone suggested I only press a button if the fireball is real. (2) I think it’s fake, you lose nothing since I did nothing, you’re safe since it recovers too fast for me to punish. (3) If I wait for the fireball to actually appear, it will be too late to punish you for the fireball and you can anti air my jump neutral or forward) or I actually get hit by the fireball as I jump if it’s a fast one. If I do nothing I get pushed back for free.

In ST when I see the fireball animation startup and I’m in position to jump over it it’s a twitch reaction or me to do so and it works, I either punish you with j.rh or I get to move in a bit closer. In HDR vs ryu, every fireball animation I see I have to guess.

62

I dont know what zaspacer means by “HDR bison’s potential”.
ST Bison and HDR Bison is the same character. Only difference is the invincibility on DR and the fake slide.
It’s not like someday one bisonplayer will show up doing stuff that noone has seen before.

Correct me if i’m wrong.

63

That’s like saying all Ryu got is a fake fireball… in ST the match was over if Bison got stuck in a corner… not anymore…

Fireball traps are weaker and he can escape crossups with DR even though Sirlin most likely didn’t intend to this…

He can juggle with neutral jump mp, fake slide is a better way of advancing on knockdown… everything about him is just better…

64

While only the first 2 frames (before his feet leave the ground) are invincible the fact that he can escape from the corner and go through fb’s definitely helps him compared to his st version. Also fake slide really doesn’t do much, j neutral mop is nice but more of a bug fix then a buff, st lp priority buff is really big for him because now he has a reliable AA that not only stops almost any jumpin but also stuffs hondas hb (including his own pc and sk.)

Sirlin said he only extended the hitbox on st lp a little but it really goes a long way, it’s an amazing move now essential to his game IMO. Although none of his buffs improve his bad matchups that much nor do they do much to hide the fact that he has a lot of bad matchups.

65

Yeah I see what youre sayin and I will say that I find doin a fake FB on Blanka pretty useful over most other characters. Fake FB is also pretty useful against Dhalsim, Chunli, Honda, Fei and Guile mostly. But still theres a good amount of mind games for usin the fake. Its really about the player youre up against and watchin their tendencies and how often and in what situations they usually throw out a fake. Look for patterns and shit like that and by doin so you can actually sometimes predict correctly instead of a complete guessin game ya know? Hes not 100% safe after doin a fake FB against Blanka.

If you can predict correctly when a fake FB is thrown you can immediately do fierce horizontal roll and punish him bad. Bluetallcans and Real Decoy I usually see do that sometimes but at the same time its pretty risky to do that. Its alot about the player youre playin…

66

Agreed. Also if a Blanka player guesses right on a Fake Hadoken, he can Strong Roll and Bite or just simply gain ground.

67

I never said that the invincible DR wasn’t a “buff”. I’m just pointing out the very few changes between ST dic and HDR dic.

As for the fakeslide. I say it’s a 50/50. If you’re playing against a good player. This player will probably be blocking. (giving you a chance to throw).
While a scrub will sweep you out of it directly. Can’t say it’s a “buff”.

68

Punishing fake firenalls with fierce balls or empty ball into throw works sometimes but that’s pure anticipation and very risky with the retarded counterhit dmg blanka now receives when getting hit out of blanka balls. The odds are aginst you. Whereas in ST Blanka is able to react to fireball animations to get around them. Still hard but reaction is always superior to anticipation and guessing, even when you’re trying to make educated guesses based on your opponents tendencies.

It’s not unbeatable of course but I believe it’s very effective against Blanka (who is the only character I can play on a competent level, I can’t speak on it’s effectiveness vs other characters). So regardless of the blanka ball being a bit safer now, that matchup is definitely worse in HDR than in ST. Thanks Sirlin.

69

Wasn’t extra damage on counter hitting Blanka balls something that was in World Warrior? Please correct me if I’m wrong, but for some reason I remember reading about it in the SNES WW game manual (which I have lying around somewhere, BTW (nerd points +1)).

70

Been awhile since I played WW but I believe Blanka took an amazing 4x damage when hit out of his ball attack, so the small amount of extra damage he takes in HDR isn’t so bad in comparison, LOL.

71

Trying to punish fake fb is like trying to punish sonic boom… it’s not a very reliable strategy.

That being said, I think the fake fb for the most part is a little redundant with doing nothing. I don’t think Ryu is much better, I think a lot of people use him because he is almost exactly the same as he was in classic ST.

72

Let’s start by looking at ST.

In ST, the character rankings (for 1-on-1 matches) seem to be:

Tier 1

Dhalsim
Claw
Boxer
O.Sagat

Tier 2

Chun Li
Ryu
Guile
Dictator
DeeJay
Ken

Tier 3

Fei-Long
Zangief
T.Hawk
E.Honda
Blanka
Cammy

(NOTE: tiers were compressed into 3 groups to make things simpler)

ST Dictator isn’t Tier 1, but he doesn’t have any auto-lose matchups and his matchups against the Tier 1 characters aren’t anything below a 3.5. (source: super nohoho fighter ii x: Super Turbo - New Arcadia Diagram)

And, in addition, we’ve seen Taira and YuuVega both use him effectively (and place high) in tournaments.

I personally think that the ST masters will still unravel more twists and knowledge and skills as they keep playing the game (keep progressing along the ST learning curve). Giving each character affected a level of “Tier Drift” (up or down) over time. How much? I have no idea. We’ll call this “Learning Curve Drift”.

Now if we had just taken ST characters and changed only Dictator (leaving the other ST characters as their ST selves) by giving Dictator his HDR buffs, I have no doubt that Dictator’s power level would change. How much? Again, I have no idea. It would take a period of time for top players to learn the nuances and start effecting changes in the tournaments. Regardless, it would provide some level of “Tier Drift”. We’ll call this “HDR Dictator Buff Tier Drift”.

And then we have the fact that the other HDR characters have changed as well from their ST versions. “Buffs”, “nerfs”, massive revamping of characters, etc. And I think it’s reasonable to expect that these changes effect their own Tier Drift (up or down). We’ll call this “HDR Opposing Character Changes Tier Drift”.

So,
ST Tier

  • Learning Curve Drift
  • HDR Dictator Buff Tier Drift (including learning curve drift on that)
  • HDR Opposing Character Changes Tier Drift (including learning curve drift on that)

= HDR Bison’s Potential

Maybe it moves Dictator up on the Tier list.
Maybe it moves Dictator down on the Tier list.
Maybe he doesn’t end up budging at all.

I have no idea.

But I do feel confident that (if HDR/ST has a long and intense enough life span) we will see some changes in HDR Dictator’s realized power level over time.

In addition, we aren’t seeing the top names in ST Dictator playing HDR really. Yuh vega dj was on HDR, but I have no news of him playing lately and I think he might be playing Classic. In addition, when I did see him play HDR, I didn’t notice him using any of the new HDR Dictator Buffs.

I did say that I think in practical terms it’s best to deal with results that we are actually seeing: HDR Dictator players that are currently playing and the results they are achieving. And right now, Dictator is not really doing that well at the high end, and seems to be roughly in the same position he is in the ST ranking: middle or upper middle tier.

73

First…thanks for taking your time ! lol
second … Yeah i get what you’re trying to say !

And um … As for yuuvega. I’m pretty sure that he was just playing classic whenever he was playing. (considering he’s ranked NO#1 on the leaderboards in classic-mode)

Me personally. I do believe that Dictator is buffed up in HDR.
[media=youtube]oJ5rQEYSk0Q[/media]
(That video will show you EXACTLY why)
But i dont think that it will move him up or down on any tier-list.
He’ll always remain mid-tier. But yeah … I get what you’re trying 2 say.

74

hehe, happy to type it up. I feel my ambiguity on the post before was leading toward havoc, so I am very happy to get that cleared up.

Yuuvega (“yuh vega dj”) has ~750 Classic ranked matches (~30 losses), and he is ranked #1 for Classic All Time. In addition, the only videos I know of him playing the XBL game are him playing Classic. ([media=youtube]PGYJ7KmQRMQ&feature=PlayList&p=86552F9EFA3EB35F&index=0&playnext=1"]4 vids vs. Decoy, [)

But yuuvega also has [URL=“http://www.streetfighter.com/flash/#/sfhd/gamercards/”]~750 HDR ranked matches](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5dYV7_5sNg&feature=related"[/media) (~30 losses), and he is ranked #14 for HDR All Time. In addition, when I first encountered yuuvega on XBL it was in HDR and I’ve only played him on there. (including a session I managed to set up between yuh vega dj and haru teyjo :slight_smile:

But I haven’t come across him in a long time (even when I see he is playing the game) and my intuition agrees with your in that he is only playing Classic now.

75

Most of the Japanese who play are sticking to Classic mode. I asked Jodim (Haru) about it on GGPO once – he quite bluntly said he dislikes HDR but loves classic mode.

76

The only reason I ever steal wins from descent dictators is because I can cross them up and have them wake up on projectiles in VST. With perfect reversals, both things do not work. So some guy like Taira, who can get like 3-4 reversals in a row in a matter of (less than) a second have potential to screw Ryus like there’s no tomorrow. As for fake hadouken, it is not like pro dictators keep watching for projectiles to jump all the time: in fact, they rarely jump forward but on knockdowns. Naturally, it is some theory fighter: Ryu is supposed to be able to avoid every projectile on wake-up with either jab SRK or short tatsu, and one rarely seens someone doing it, even among pros or tops*.

*technically, most top Japanese players are not pros as they don’t get money playing.

77

I thought i read somewhere, that the degree of the penalty was a glitch. I’d find it hard to believe they’d make it that much on purpose.

78

Hard to say, the original SF2WW was a bit of a glitchy mess. But then 2-in-1’s were originaly a glitch in that game, so if it hadn’t been a glitchy mess we might not have had the combo system that 95% of 2D fighting games used after WW, LOL.

But ya, with the 4X damage Blanka took when hit out of his ball attack there weren’t many Blanka players back then.

79

Hitting a Blanka roll with a Ken/Ryu uppercut was a very rare thing early in WW’s lifecycle. And it made for a very dramatic clutch comeback. Remember, the Ken/Ryu uppercut in WW could not be performed as a wake-up move.

There were a good amount of Blanka players in WW for a long section of its lifecycle (I learned to play using Blanka actually), and it was characters like Zangief and Dhalsim that were less common then because of the time investment they required to really use them effectively. Of course once the game was mature, then the only two characters I saw at the high end were Guile and Dhalsim.

80

All I ever remember seeing at the arcades during the WW days was Guile and Dhalsim (mostly Guile, LOL). Heck even I used Guile back then, LOL. A few Geifers too, Geif was a beast because after one SPD he landed right next to you and there were no reversals.