RE: Vega
Not being able to store the scarlet terror also makes it easier to corner Vega with repeated jump-ins, and also weakens his overall defense. I also find that the dive properties are sometimes quite weird, I find myself being hit out by even a simple cr. jab here and there. As for the Honda match? It is winnable but quite difficult overall. Vega is definitely not top in HDR, he’s still probably somewhere up though.
I already mentioned dive so when I asked what anyone gained against him it was implied I meant other then his loss of dive knockdown. Even though 99% of srk thinks honda beats claw quite a few players like Apoc think it’s the other way around lol.
Your reading ability is as stellar as ever.
To be fair, almost every specific change you listed dealt with Wall Dives.
Sigh.
A nice little recap.
Now anyone that believes walldives are not an integral part of why Claw is considered so dominating in ST have not played it nearly enough.
Everytime i hear “walldives are not what made him good” i just shrug and laugh.
And therefore anyone that thinks not getting a knockdown on walldives is not a huge difference probably has no idea what they are talking about.
Now let’s look over this little discussion:
Orochi Zoolander says: I can’t think of anything anyone got that would help them have a significantly easier time vs claw:
Shari:: Lists what is wrong with that statement.
Orochi Zoolander: But i meant besides no knockdown on walldive.
Shari: Is absolutely sure he only skimmed the post as he must have missed all the points that had nothing to do with knockdown on walldive.
Skankin Garbage: But almost all the things you listed have to do with walldives.
So we have gone from No knockdown not being a big deal.
To the entire move itself being nerfed not being a big deal.
And at that point.
I bow out of this thread.
What I’ve grown to dislike more and more from HDR claw (besides the new P+K backflip motions) is that claw’s standing flipkick has been removed when its only purpose was for countering cheese tactics.
As for the current discussion, I don’t think wall dive knockdowns are an integral part of ST claw’s strategy. I could be wrong but when I look at JP videos, I don’t see a huge need for them in most matches either. Now, not having them definitely deducts a portion of damage, maybe 5-25% on average depending on the character. So if you took 0.5 off from half his matches, it’s possible claw may not be in the top quartile anymore. I’d have to play against more characters offline to solidify my opinion either way.
Agreed.
To clarify:
I said Walldives are an integral part instead of walldive knockdowns are an integral part for that very reason.
Bows out again.
I think it’s safe to assume when anyone mentions walldive negatively they’re usually talking abotu the knockdown of it rather then the move itself unless otherwise stated, btw after seeing your sbo qualifer win over Damdai it feels a little better knowing I was knocked out 1 game short of evo semis by the top claw in the U.S…unless immortalbmw has anything to say about that.
During the st tourney at evo a lot of people while watching you agreed claws speed makes it hard to reversal him on reaction.
Is this because of the loss of wall dive knock-down?
EDIT:
OK, just saw that you believe that the wall dive knockdown isn’t an integral part of Claw’s game.
So, how is Chun-Li, whose SBK and super are significantly worse now, harder for Claw than she was in ST??
Ditto Honda, who can no longer do the walking super?
zaspacer hate!
I would say that HDR’s top tier is:
Boxer (still too fast and too strong to be anything less than the best)
Claw (still got the insane speed, reach, and dive ambiguity, all great equalizing tools for average players)
Dictator (st. jab, up + strong psycho fist, jab DR escape for free, and kept his 5-hit TOD)
Maybe Ryu (fake FB) and Guile (RH FK, easy super motion, overhead)
Dhalsim doesn’t quite make the cut anymore, due to his nerfs and other chars.’ buffs.
I would love to know what the top JP players think of HDR Zangief. A lot of people picked up that character in HDR, even before SnakeEyez’s win this year. I find myself having to work a lot harder to beat Z in HDR.
How can anyone say dic is tops? Dic players will tell you he has many bad matchups. Ryu, ken, chun, and to a lesser extent honda rape him, de mavrick even told me he thinks blanka is almost impossible to beat. Guile and dj are pretty bad but not horrible for dic as well, sagat is kind of good against him and dic’s tod is not any justification for him being tops when almost everyone has a tod.
Matchups is what determines who’s top dog, and dic clearly has more then enough to put him well out of top3. Even Sirlin who uses him doesn’t think he’s high tier.
Edit: I remember a few months before release I was literally the only one who didn’t think fake slide and neutral j mp would be broken:rofl:
All day, everyday baby!
Yeah, I’m sorry but saying Dic is top tier is just not true. He has several match ups that are very difficult and only three or four in his favor.
Has Dic every won a major HDR tournament? (or even a minor one…?)
Maybe I’m doing this matchup all wrong, but how does Chun beat Dictator that badly? At max range, he can headstomp her on reaction to fireballs which won’t reach him, so she has to go closer to avoid getting chipped to death. So, to do that, she has to go past mid range without a charge, where she doesn’t have a move that reliably beats Psycho Crasher on the ground, and doesn’t have a move that reliably beats j. strong in the air. If she tries to counter j. strong with j. fierce and he doesn’t jump, she gets to eat a Psycho Crasher or Scissor Kicks on the way down. Then, even if she does get close, he can just Devil Reverse or Psycho Crasher through her and be clear across the screen. All this, plus if he gets a knockdown on her he can usually go for a 50/50 crossup into TOD, which, even if she blocks the right way, still has the same low/throw mix up game that she gets if she knocks him down, if not better.
Throw a FB and advance with j.MK. Trap Dic in the corner and do the low forward / st.mp / throw / FB / legs mixup stuff. This is a 7-3 matchup in her favor in ST and although I haven’t played HDR in a while I don’t think it’s wildly different.
A full screen fireball won’t reach Dictator and j. mk loses cleanly to j. strong. The only diagonal jump move that has a chance of beating j. strong is j. fierce. Legs loses to Psycho Crasher now, too, because of the priority reduction.
The point of the fireball is to advance while the fireball is on screen - look at Sirlin’s capcom classics collection tutorial on controlling space. Dic can’t just PC into it. And j.mk doesn’t lose cleanly to j.strong - I just played 20 matches of Dic vs. Chun about an hour ago on GGPO and Chun was wrecking me with it.
if i remember correctly, chuns jumping mk destroys dic.
If I chase it, then Dictator can just Psycho Crasher right when it disappears, doing plenty of chip and leaving me across the screen again.
J. forward has a huge vulnerable area on top of it, and Dictator rises a lot faster than Chun, so he can jump in reaction to her jump and still be over top of her. The second one also completely beats it out. Admittedly, straight on j. forward has 2 more pixels of priority than the first j. strong, but leaves her completely vulnerable on landing if she tries to do it early enough.
if u PC after the FB disappears, you’ll get hit with the next FB.
Bison can only hit that jump mk if he jumps first, but if you jumpy against chun you’ll get up kicked. Most of the time chun will get the jump on bison so he will be under her most of the time.