Team Fortress 2 - Heavy Update, New Maps, New Mode are all live now!

[Keits]

Of course they need support, murph. its called TEAM fortress.

[Shadowcuz]

well Pyros are good for revealing spies

[bear]

I agree that the pyro CAN do a lot of damage, its just that the situations that they are strong in are rare, and even then they need support to really do a lot. They do very well when there are large groups of enemies close together. The problem is, this situation shouldn’t come up often. Even in a full 24 person server, I rarely see groups of more than 3 people in a distance that is ideal for a pyro. Usually, in that small of group, the pyro just gets rocketed to oblivion and doesn’t usually do more than the damage that the flames will do themselves. Most maps have enough health packs that you rarely will even get a kill this way.

I will also say, if you are taking out full groups of 3+ people with the torch and shotgun strategy, they aren’t very smart. I’ve seen what happens when good, smart pyros charge into a group of 3 of anything, and rarely does the pryo even walk away from the encounter, none the less with more than a kill assist or two. Usually, its pyro runs around the corner, a rocket and a couple shotgun shells hit him in the face, the pyro is now dead and might have set 3 people on fire if he’s lucky. If he somehow lived, all three people are backtracking while pumping whatever rounds they have at the pyro. So, mainly, its not really that the pyro is good so much as that the people that you are playing dont know how to react to the situation.

I’ve rarely seen a situation a pyro did well in that a heavy or soldier wouldn’t have done just as well or better in. The pyro is just an inherently situational class, and as far as I’m concerned, the only way to tier TF2 is by how situational a class is, and how common that situation is. The pyro is only strong in 1 or 2, fairly rare situations. The sniper is the same way, although unlike the pryo, the sniper CREATES the situation by being in certain places. The engineer is situational as well, but again, the engineer CREATES the situation (builds wherever), and also has a lot more flexability in that the engineer has a lot more choices of where to setup, and isn’t stuck in that spot for most of the game.

On the other hand, the soldier and demoman aren’t really situational classes at all. The soldier can be in the base holding the intel/point, and do well at it, or on the front lines. The soldier does well against individuals (being able to use rockets to pop people in the air, then finish them with an explosion), and also against groups (splash damage, plus a high potential to crit and take out 1-3 people practically for free). The demoman is at least slightly more situational, since he has more trouble on offense, but even as a part of the front line, sticky bombs control so much space that it kind of evens out. If you are good at arcing the shots, the main gun is pretty freaking good, too.

…that ending up being way more than I meant to write.

I must get lucky pretty often then. I never have trouble getting kills as a pyro or choking off a point, and on maps like dustbowl they can shutdown large groups regularly. As for people not often moving in groups of 3 or more … well, I don’t know where you play, but in all the pubs I’ve played on, it happens all the time. And people often hug walls when turning corners, so a bit of patience and they will walk right into you. And if you have a good demoman nearby, taking out large groups is pretty easy.

And yeah, soldiers are good in most situations. I don’t think anyone will argue that they are the easiest class to play. And spend a bit of time on a demoman and get good with sticky bombs, they can take out anyone not charging you. I have by far the most hours on demoman, and I can play them well. But I still think pyros are underrated, and I very rarely see people who play them well. But the ones that do can really run a game.

And I just looked through youtube clips, and here’s a good one on how to play a pyro:

[media=youtube]QGIISxhYRYE[/media]

Players that use them like that do very well with them.

But as I said, most of the servers I play on aren’t terribly challenging. And I’ve tried a lot of servers. It’s why I’ve kinda gone back to counterstrike for now. I still play TF2 a bit, and I really like the game, but it’s a bit too easy. Might just be where I’m playing though.

[koogy]

They’re going to release some hardcore changes, supposedly. Many are rumoring grenade return, which would probably increase the fun of the game 10x. Really, it lacks depth hardcore right now. Especially with Snipers being so useless lately.

[koogy]

Competitive / Casual tiers

Basic “team” structure in 6v6

2 Soldier
2 Scout
1 Medic
1 Demo

or

2 Soldier
1 Scout
1 Medic
1 Demo
1 Heavy

Actual Top Tier:

Medic+Soldier
Medic+Heavy
Medic+Heavy+Dispenser

[SOLO]

Top Tiers:

Soldier - Crit rocket is 270 damage for no real reason, gets crits all the fucking time. Can control space incredibly well, limits movement with random quake style corner rockets (aim for corner you think enemy is, they either get hit or are scared). Has shotgun as secondary which allows for Rocket + Shotgun x2 + Rocket combo, and is the primary killer of sentry guns. Bad match-ups are super far range Snipers, Medic+Heavy, Medic+Soldier. Ultimately, he is overpowered compared to the rest of the cast. His rockets do too much damage together, and criticals are far too powerful.

Scout - Aiming vs. a good one is near impossible, Double jump over your head while you circle strafe + random mix-ups is too confusing. Bat is good melee, and he can control range well upclose [basically, if he is circle strafing you, he can switch to bat and get random huge damage, or pull out Scattergun and blast you for huge damage] Critical primary is godlike damage (180) and normal damage is too high (80~100 point blank). Has issues at range, but doesn’t have to worry about Snipers anymore. Bad match-ups are Heavy, Heavy+Medic, Engi + Sentry, Lucky Crits.

Demo - Best defensive class in the game. Stickies take too much time to remove from walls / floor, and primary does huge chunks of damage on first hit (85 ~ 125). Can risk some health to get into impossible positions, also can spam primary grenades at strange angles to prevent movement. Has the absolute best chance of destroying badly placed Sentries; can take out the engineer, dispensor, and fucking everything else if angled properly. Also gets tons of stupid bullshit kills around respawn doors. However, his ability to accurately control range is somewhat iffy. It takes quite a bit of time to fire a sticky and use it as a main weapon, and the main weapon, if bouncing, is too random to be effective. Bad match-ups are Scout, Medic+Heavy, Medic+Soldier, Soldier, Sniper at far range.

Upper:

Heavy - Movement is limited to the point that I don’t feel he is top tier. Minigun does insane damage, and just mows people over. When paired with a medic, can become nearly unstoppable vs. lower tiers. When aiming ability is high, can shut down any close-range class. Also, when paired with medic + dispenser, he becomes top tier due to being able to spam primary to detect spies + harass snipers, and push away demo stickies. Bad match-ups are good Scouts, Medic+Soldier, Spies, Snipers.

Mid Tier:

Pyro - Hm… this character has issues. He is great at pushing out massive damage sometimes, but he can’t do it at any range except kissy-kissy. His after-burn is pretty strong also, but the damage at max range is sometimes a bit problematic, because the other top tiers can push you away / run away, or blow you up faster than you can kill them. Circle strafing is good, but how do you get there in the first place? It isn’t like he has cloaking… Bad match-ups: Engi + Sentry, Scout, Soldier, Demo, Heavy, Sniper

Engineer - Completely shuts down two classes with sentry guns, and helps make Pyros and Heavies crazy with dispensers. His teleporters are irritating when dealing with momentum, because all the big guys are in your face 20 seconds later instead of a minute. His weapons suck total ass, but wrench-spamming can help sometimes against some rushes. There are certain positions that let the Engi rack up the rape, but generally Soldiers + Spies are too much for him to overcome, and there is no way to survive vs. Uber-ed Pyro or Heavy. Bad match-ups - Without sentry, everyone. With sentry, Sniper, [Soldier, Heavy] + Medic, Demoman, Spies

Low Tier:

Spies: Hm. The Spy is pretty cool, but ultimately I have to question his ability to play on a competitive team in the majority of matches. His ability to sneak past people and kill ubers is wonderful. His ability to sap turrets and dispensers is neat-o, also. But they nerfed the damage on dispensers and turrets, and his ability to survive after these encounters is very slim, generally. He is the best at taking out snipers and medic/heavy, medic/soldier combos. But he is mostly a pub score whore character, IMO. Bad match-ups: Pyro, Heavy, Soldier, Scout.

Snipers: Ugh… they have ruined the Sniper since the newest patch. Basically, the Sniper used to be upper mid. He could move fast enough that hitting him was a challenge, but he took massive amounts of skill to play properly. Now, he is public server fodder. The change took away his ability to quickly unscope from his rifle after a shot. Now, you have to sit there like a jackass and move slowly while the enemy shoots rockets at your face / other sniper cleans your clock. There is no room for error with him anymore. Also, he has absolutely zero chance of killing any class at any range except Mid and farther. I know, people will say “WELL THAT IS HIS DESIGN”… but even in fighting games, characters can deal with shit at varying ranges. They limited the sniper a bit too much. Bad match-ups are everyone at close range, Spies, Scouts.

Medics: Kinda obvious why. Best when paired up, then top tier. However, he is not intended for solo.

And really, the ultimate complaint of high level players is: Lack of depth. There are no fancy tricks you can do. You can’t spend hours practicing conc jumps, or crazy sentry positions, or even sniper tactics. You just … play a basic game of TF2 every time. You uber up, you rush out with a soldier, you have a demo man plant some stickies… that’s it. It is very much like rock paper scissors, instead of chess. I wish it was more like chess.

[marshun]

thanks for the info

[Ninja_Wallace]

Koogy, Pyro should be lower on that list. They’re only good at ambushes, but Demos, Spies and Heavies can pull those off more successfully. Yes, I do realize I’m contradicting what I said before.

And now for some jokes:
http://www.imagechan.com/img/img.php?id=4694&search=sap&s=2

[koogy]

Koogy, Pyro should be lower on that list. They’re only good at ambushes, but Demos, Spies and Heavies can pull those off more successfully.

And now for some jokes:
http://www.imagechan.com/img/img.php?id=4694&search=sap&s=2

Pyro can team up with ubers to rape teams. Also can deal with Spies really well. Generally, when I see them used effectively, they are teaming up behind a Heavy / Medic, and causing additional damage. But yes, I think they should be the lowest of the offense.

[ChairHome]

Details on the new patch coming out… basically changing a lot of stuff if this is true. Unlockable weapons?.. someone’s been playing too much CoD4.

The unlockables aren’t just beefed up versions of the weapons, they balance major advantages and disadvantages to fundamentally alter the role of that class. The first Medic unlock, for example, is called the Overhealer. Instead of temporarily buffing people’s health to 50% above their normal maximum, it permanently boosts them to double their standard health. The downside is that it’ll be dramatically worse at building Ubercharge - in fact, Valve are toying with not letting it Uber at all.

No details on what the second unlock they’ll be rolling out in this update will be, beyond the basics: it’ll be another Medic healing ray, and it’ll change the way the class plays all over again. The first is earned by acquiring half of the thirty-five new Medic achievements, the second for acquiring them all.

The new game mode is showcased in Goldrush - the map that will ship alongside cp_badlands in a little over a month from now. One team must escort a small mining cart through a series of Dustbowl-like map segments. The cart moves faster the more Blue players are near it, but stops entirely if even one Red player is in range. Blue have to escort the cart all the way to Red’s headquarters within a certain timelimit.

[CrouchingTiger]

You guys didn’t tier the aimbot sniper. That’s god tier. He can singlehandedly drop teams. I just had the unfortunate experience of playing against one (and with him, after he switched teams heh).

[Kang_Do]

No, it’s called personal opinion. I reached til the point where you get the dune buggy and you’re driving down the ant lion coast. My save file got deleted at that point, and I just never felt it worth the effort to continue playing (using cheats I coud just start from that level). I was already bored at that point.

Call of Duty 4 is much more my preference for single player, short intense levels, with well defined goals.

That’s probably one of the dullest parts of the game but once you’re done with that and have gotten to the good parts, it’s one of the best, most immersive single player FPS experiences I’ve ever had.

[CrouchingTiger]

There was a patch yesterday. Not as involving as the previously mentioned upcoming patch, but it did make a few minor changes.

Namely a new map, CTF_Well. It’s the same Well stage (with a minor change here and there), except it’s now capture the flag! And I must say, IMO, it is very fun. I prefer it to regular CP_Well. It’s a breath of fresh air from 2fort, in terms of CTF.

[Geese_Pants]

I just had my best game of TF2 so far!!!

I was in the Blue team as Medic…healing people as much as I can for that Uber. Red team was holding the last point in Granary down to the last minute. I was in the sidelines healing random teammates. 10 seconds remaining…and I finally got uber!

Fucking charged that shit w/ soldier…and went fucking crazy owning shit, and took the fuckin last point!!!

That was so awesome…I’ll never diss medic ever again.

[System_1]

So there I was on CTF playing as a spy, took the standard “cloak, sneak to the corner, wait for cloak, look around and sap like hell” approach. They had a sentry in the main part of their base, and I sapped it. The engineer showed up and tried to fix it, but I kept slapping those bitches on til it 'sploded. I cloaked and hid, then snuck in and waited invisible next to the staircase that leads to the intel room, and the engineer ran by, and got a knifing between the 2nd and 3rd vertebrae. I wait and put the cloak back up, and scout out their intel room, and take out their teleporter that they nubbishly left unattended. I called in a scout to take the intel and he hopped in through the sewers and ran in the way I came and grabbed the intel. I followed him out the back but went up top, and backstabbed a pair of snipers. A demoman came out of their base and I dropped down and stabbed him too. And that was game. Good stuff.

[Geese_Pants]

Spy and Heavy are the only classes I haven’t played yet…

[Kuprin]

Really it’s about matchups, maps, and situations. A good example is the scout on 2fort. You’d think with a map like that, the scout is great? Depends on how many players.

8v8: Scouts are god. You’ll probably see 2 per team, if not 3. Just keep the enemy engies from doing shit, especially if they have a lot of engies.

12v12: Not so good, but still very viable. You’ll still see 2 or 3 per team.

16v16: Un. Fucking. Playable. Go be a demoman, they’re the 16v16 version of the scout.

Same goes for all the classes. Finesse goes down as the player count increases, making your scouts and spies less useful in favour of demomen and snipers.

[_MJ_R]

wheres mah Hunted…

[Geese_Pants]

February 28 TF2 Update…

Added “Custom” tab to the server browser

• Servers can now specify metatags describing the custom rules they’ve adopted
• Players can use tag filtering to find servers running the custom rules they want to play
• Added options for servers who want to become custom games: Disable critical hits (tf_weapon_criticals), eliminate respawn times (mp_disable_respawn_times), and raise maxplayers above 24

Initial release of Tournament mode (mp_tournament)

• UI for handling team naming, ready mode, and win results
• Disables team player limits, autobalancing, and intermission

Class balancing

• Reduced Soldier’s maximum rocket reserve ammo from 36 to 16
• Reduced Demoman’s maximum sticky bomb reserve ammo from 30 to 16
• Reduced Demoman’s maximum grenade launcher reserve ammo from 40 to 24

General

• Added protection against voice command spamming. Dramatic reduction in teleporters needed
• Fixed mp_timelimit ending the map during the middle of a round on maps like Dustbowl and GravelPit
• Fixed “lastdisguise” command not remembering if you were disguised as your own team
• Added “Toggle Disguise Team” binding in Options->Keyboard to toggle the disguise team for the Spy’s PDA
• Changed PDA menus to accept keys bound to “slot1”, “slot2”, etc., and “slot10” cancels
• Fixed Spectator targetID not using team colors
• Changed team autobalance code to not balance the teams when the active round timer shows less than 60 seconds
• Fixed “-maxplayers” on the command line not correctly setting the maxplayers value for the server
• Fixed Badlands never having Sudden Death triggered
• Fixed Engineer being able to detonate buildings that are being sapped
• Changed Engineer buildings to detonate when a player disconnects instead of blinking out
• Fixed potential client crash for players being healed by a Medic or dispenser
• Made several improvements to server-side stat reporting (not related to individual player stats)

[kev_the_bev]

just picked this up for 360 the other day due to my PC not being able to run it…let’s go.

[Geese_Pants]

Damn…I didn’t know that the Orange Box was on sale for $40 at Steam this past weekend.

I got my friend a copy of the game…feels good to spread the TF2 love.