Talking Points: Discussion in the Fighting Game Community

Article I wrote. Had to scrap it. What I had written is below. EDIT: Formatting pretty much restored. Lemme know if anything needs to be reformatted…

There’s a fallibility in the way we argue. Informed discussion can lead us to brilliant epiphanies and at the same time painful truths that if not for debate, we wouldn’t see fit to confront. But it can bring us to a place that we regret irrevocably, and unearth our basest, most vicious tendencies to those around us. When you open discussion, you also open the realm of subjectivity, and not a lot of people understand that opinions are always a very relative concept. On the internet it is “Good vs. Evil” and my opinion is Superman while yours is Brainiac. You blew up Krypton. You’re like Robot Hitler. And on the other side of the coin I’m sure the people you accuse see you the same way.

You can’t get anywhere when everybody is Robot Hitler.

I write this, realizing that I have been guilty of it as well. There are things I don’t regret saying, and opinions I don’t regret having— but my ability to discuss them feels challenging. There’s a very different set of tones you have to take when writing into whatever form of media you choose to filter your words in. Here, I feel the need to explore, inform and conclude. I’m trying to be verbose and very deductive in the way I form my ideas. In real life I’m sarcastic and light. Most of my speech is colloquialism mixed with occasional slang. On a forum where my debate is worldwide, I’m angry. I’m smart, I know it, and my opinions come from my “wealth” of experience and years—as well as my cracker jack intuition, and if you can’t see that well then you’re some kind of idiot aren’t you?

You can see where this is going.

The latter, I can’t possibly understand. There is that heat of the moment, where I look at what I’ve written and crack a smirk—thinking “Damn! I got him good! Let’s see him crawl out of being compared to an Alligator with down syndrome!” and two hours later I wonder “Really? Down syndrome? Just because he thinks ‘The Dark Knight Rises’ wasn’t as good as ‘The Avengers’?” It’s very easy and convenient for me to say that it’s all just human nature and that I am indeed, fallible. But I know this. I know I’m not perfect. By any means I know I’ll make a load of mistakes I’ll end up telling people about when I’m an old, dusty, and offering them thin mints. That still doesn’t excuse me from losing myself entirely for a moment of sheer violent insanity in text form.

I know what you’re thinking—“Wow, how timely. An article about sheer unrepressed insanity within forum threads.” But it’s so frequent, why not address it now? Granted, there are moments when anger is a strong ally and is necessary for what transpires. But to let it slip and grow into something that controls you is a drastic circumstance you almost always regret—unless your mentality is that of a 15 year old. Then, you’re back on the forums next day—and now people who like Cross Tekken are Robot Hitler.

Why in the FGC are we so quick to embody this trend like clockwork? The forums we frequent and the events we attend seem like night and day. Even after hearing that “On the internet you hide behind a screen” and that “People are immature” I can’t put two and two together because something feels decidedly incongruent. I mentioned that tone takes a sudden change with different environments—yet it’s not only the tone, it’s the personality. The opinions, the acceptance—everything. If I walked into Wednesday Night Fights and said “I’m a Muslim theater major who raps and is trying to learn Ryu”—I’m thrown into the mix to test my luck. If I enter a thread and mention any of those things it’s “Muzzy shithead Eminem wannabe rapper.” How is this conducive to discussion? The age range I find most people to be in who spout this stuff averages in-between 23-32 years old. That’s insane. What adult in 2012 says those kinds of things in a progressive environment and then turns around claims to have an open mind?

But then we get to “opinion.” This is “my opinion” so whatever I say is valid, right? I have the right to say whatever I want, the first amendment—so deal. But it’s situational. You see, discussion devolves quickly into absolutes whenever these people present themselves. Suddenly every Republican hates women, and every Blazblue fan is an otaku who doesn’t believe in showers. When problems arise, people are grouped ostentatiously into this hive mentality. Sure, you have an opinion—but if it’s not in the majority you better shut up or die before anyone begins to give a damn. If you do happen to be part of that randomly-selected majority however, congratulations! You can say whatever you want as long as we agree. Even if a few intelligent people realize you’ve gone overboard, the hive will accept you and continue to grow off of your extreme hyperbole, and accept it as casual fact.

“Hey I found out this information.”

“WOW AT THIS INFORMATION, I can’t believe it’s true.”

“Really? Holy crap, I can’t believe that happened.”

“What does this mean?”

“I’ll tell you what this means, It means that we’ve been lied to.”

“You know, the people from where this information comes from always lie to us. I’ve had a feeling in my gut ever since I became a private forum detective three years ago.”

“I agree, first it’s last weeks information NOW THIS WEEKS information.”

“I’m just done. I can’t listen to any more information. I’m out.”

“lol i expected this information. how could u not? i never trusted anybody lolz”

“Pfft, who cares”

“This information is insane. The fact of the matter is that whoever didn’t tell us this information,
and chose to reveal it now, has been almost complicit because he had this information in mind, and didn’t share it. I’m incredibly disheartened and ashamed at all of this. I can’t believe this is could happen. If this is the way it’s going to be, then these people should be punished viciously.”

“I believe the people who gave this information are secretly warlocks.”

“I do as well, we should burn them alive.”

“Are we allowed? Someone do a google search on burning people alive in order to prove they’re warlocks.”

“Don’t you guys think you’re being a little—“

“SHUT UP”

“YEAH SHUT UP YOU”

“HE’S A WARLOCK”

“HE IS?”

“OH MY GOD! I SEE HIS HORNS! HE’S DEFINITELY A WARLOCK!”

“FIND HIS HOUSE!”

“Guys I just—“

“TOO LATE WARLOCK! WE’VE FOUND YOU! NOW STAY PUT WHILE WE GATHER WOOD!”

“Why does this always happen…”

I remember arguing with three people about Ryu changes from Street Fighter IV to Super Street Fighter IV—and they kept referring to my reasoning as being part of the “Ryu Army.” I would learn things from Valle and other prominent members in SoCal—go online and talk, yet within minutes I was labeled as an idiot and a fraud of the “Ryu Army.” Like I was part of a big conspiracy towards changing the game so that only Ryu players would have their day in the sun. Would you like to know what their chief argument was? That because Ryu had a viable anti-air, he deserved to be nerfed to the ground. They wanted all invincibility off Shoryukens gone (which would make the move effectively useless) and EX Tatsu to be -9 on block, which would make it unnecessarily punishable.

Eventually opinion does become hyperbolic, and to call out hyperbole is once again a request for getting verbally stoned to death. Suddenly a bad decision by “Capcom” becomes “…a viciously angry attack on our rights as human beings! They’re trying to exploit us and use us for personal gain!” A strong day one character becomes “WESKER IS EASILY THE BEST IN ULTIMATE MARVEL WITHOUT QUESTION, HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO US?!” and a bad tournament experience becomes “Who supported this or attended?! They are clearly equivalent to the Tournament Organizers themselves!” There’s no scale. There’s no numbers between 1-10 that represent outrage other than the outliers. Context doesn’t exist.

And if you have the audacity to try and squeeze out some rationality? You’re an accomplice.
All we do with this collectivist hive mentality is fracture relationships and treat outrage like a virus with no cure. The mentality becomes “If we can’t think with reason, yell our reasoning at them and maybe they’ll listen”—and suddenly everyone starts shouting and nobody hears a damn thing. I don’t regret my statements on the forums about what transpired, but I do regret the way I used them. I should have been collected in what I said, and not let myself divulge into my own irrationality. It stands to reason that there has to be a way to have a discussion without people trying to stab each other on the internet a majority of the time, if it’s commonplace in real life.

There are plenty of instances where rational discussion has lead us to many important discoveries. You can’t build a bridge if you all don’t agree on the design. You can’t stay in a relationship unless you have a compromise. And you can’t accomplish anything if your moral compass just solely points in the direction of yourself, because in an environment where things change as rapidly as they do– you soon lose sight of the fact that *you’re not the only person with a vote. *Empathy is what we’ve lost, and we need to regain it. It’s difficult but not exactly hard labor taking the minute to see why someone feels how they do. And it’s not going to kill you to back off that rant where you burn a man with your bully pulpit, in order to deliberate civilly till you foster a sensible conclusion. If Google has taught me anything, every constituency has its base and has always had its partisanship groomed within it since the dawn of civilization– but its only when rationality is pooled that anything gets solved.

There’s that idea that people quote me about how everyone (at least on a subconscious level) is racist, and it’s only the best of us who can see past our own prejudices to accept people for who they are. You have to actively do it in order to be a tolerant, sound human being. But I feel like the internet, and the FGC to some extent, don’t feel that way. I think we feel as if every little whim and instinct that pops into our heads is correct, and they should all be followed to their logical conclusion regardless of who gets hurt. Forgive me, but that sounds a lot more Brainiac-like to me than anything else.

Friggen’ Robot Hitlers.

Welcome to the internet. Enjoy your stay!

glad u wrote this article. i can accept that this is how the internet is, but i cant accept this to be the standard for the fgc, considering how personal and niche it is. too much complaining and hostility

Redrapper as someone who went from stream monstering to going to locals/tournaments the ones that claim to be part of the FGC and just posting on forums and stuff should not be considered the standard. You know, and I know definitely now that the when you go to events its completely different and is magnitudes better than anything you see on the internet.

The worst part is that pre SF4 it was actually easier to get people to try / play lesser known games. The animosity and malice were still there but we were knit far tighter then. Getting the likes Arturo, Justin, or Noel to play Arcana Heart wasn’t a chore or something that required public relations, they genuinely wanted to play the game and the game lasted for a few years even with it being a patch or two behind. It’s why Melty took years but eventually made to Evolution. Hell, it’s why MvC2 went on for ten years, even with bugs and glitches and an imbalance that’s far worse than UMvC3.

There are more, WAY MORE people sitting in the bleachers that are located just outside of the gates of this community than there are within and at times it really feels like they dictate things. If Skullgirls was around pre SF4 it would be doing just fine, but now in this environment with majors having to figure out how many AAA titles will bring in viewers and names, it’s ‘dead’.

I still don’t understand how 3SOE is dead, and all of this leaves me to be the cynic because I think Darkstalkers Resurrection will flop in three months flat. I still equate ‘stream monsters’ to a bunch of pigeons flocking to an old guy tossing bread crumbs at the park, they’re all over it when they’ve got what they want, but you throw something else in there and they’re out and liable to shit on your car ten minutes later.

Bah.

Good article.

Two plus two doesn’t equal four because you’re adding two apples and two oranges and trying to come up with 4 apples. People who believe there is a secret Ryu conspiracy aren’t showing up to Wednesday Night Fights; the amount of skill and knowledge needed to get past the first round weeds those people out. If you don’t like Muslims or Black or Hispanic people or Asians or Jews you’re probably not going to show up to an event where you might get your ass handed to you by one. I believe your argument is undervaluing the qualities shown just by showing up regularly to tournaments. You’re comparing people who have proven themselves willing to learn and interact in socially diverse settings with people who haven’t. No one who goes the WNF regularly has never met a Muslim if you are there, but you can’t say the same of everyone with internet access.

Part of the reason there are at least two FGCs is because the FGC that you would like to exist can’t exist as an open democracy, because people like you who would like rational discussion have always been in the minority. Not separating the community leaves you outnumbered 3 to 1 in your belief that shoryukens aren’t completely broken and overpowered. If you were to go simply by popular vote I think the majority opinion may still be that throws are cheap.

Probably the most accurate description of stream monsters I’ve heard, honestly.

Good point.

I think there’s a slight overlap though, because there are people who attend WNF’s who keep to themselves normally when the season is in full swing-- and that’s what I’m talking about. And a lot of the adults I wrote about do attend casual sessions of their own and interact with people at majors everywhere.

But what you’re saying does make sense, and I do think the effort to go out and meet people in settings like Arcades certainly changes the dynamics and viewpoints around the situation quite a bit.

I laugh anytime i hear anyone on the sf4 bandwagon asking for a new DS game, especially since they won’t even play sfxt and they all dropped 3sOE.

I hope you expect little more than a handful of people to read this and take pause to stew on it because I don’t think the general culture of the forum will ever change since its the internet, and all of the internet is more of less like this.

Also worth noting is that the sub forums with the highest traffic are typically the most full of tards (as is true on most of the internet).

I don’t really get why you’re trying to make a post about this when it’s going to change nothing, it’s not going to stop people from being a giant fucktard, I mean I know why you scrapped the article because it’s really unnecessary. All it really seems like it’s a giant gold encrusted whine post about why no one takes you seriously except the people you meet in person because they don’t have the balls to tell you why they dislike you/what you do packaged into a broad statement since it’s applicable to a lot of people.

Somebody posting in my turf…:coffee:

There’s a really big problem with how the games are discussed. What you point out is the intersection where competitiveness, badly parsed arguments, thing that don’t work out in either at the “theoretical” level or the practical one all collide into a choir of assholes all shitting into one latrine. The really big problem is how bad we are at discussing strategy. I’m throwing all of us under the BALLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON on this one.

This place is a thousand times more friendly than it was 5 years ago, and its based on a definite choice by Wizard/Inkblot/Ponder to change things.

It’ll always be the internet, but its amazing looking at SRK and seeing how much it’s changed for the better.

I did it because I wanted to talk about hive mentality. I wrote the piece as a bridge to say that there’s no reason why in reality we can avoid polarizing discussion and come to conclusions and not do so on the internet.

And while you may not like what I do, that doesn’t mean everyone I meet isn’t “man enough” to hate my shit. The post had very little to do with that and my life doesn’t revolve around the perceptions of whether or not people take me seriously. The intent isn’t to sway insane people, it’s to sway people who typically jump to a side only due to how loud or how cynically they convey their opinions. Those people do read, and can think somewhat rationally(although ironically since the nature of bandwagonning is in itself, irrational) and therefore can be swayed towards promoting a more rational environment. That’s why I wrote it. Not to “whine”.

What I don’t understand is why stream monsters and blatant haters go out there way to virtually punish another FG community for the game that it plays. Granted there are games I don’t play that I sincerely enjoy watching and similarly I have certain games that I don’t enjoy but I don’t go on stream and say take this “shitty” game off and put on sum mahbelz. Red I don’t really see your post as a “whine” as other seem to perceive it but more as a mature warning as to why such a stupid mentality is detrimental for our growth as a community. Trolls might find it funny, but I honestly don’t.

So, in essence you’re saying that you’re trying to convince people with very strong opinions that stand by it to not stand by their opinion? That makes hardly any sense if they’re providing enough evidence to why they feel that way. Loudly stating an opinion does not equal being a bandwagoner, but that seems like what you’re insinuating. I mean correct me if I’m wrong but you did just say that. Also I hope you didn’t say that I hate your shit, because I clearly didn’t state my opinion on your content.

The point of the article is that the way we are approaching our argument focuses too much on personal attacks rather than argumentative ones. This is causing certain points to be dismissed by addressing them with an insult rather than bringing counter arguments. I could’ve prefaced this post by adding “You dumb motherfucker” but it would not have added anything of value to the post (this is based on the analysis of the OP, I like adding “You dumb motherfucker” to many things).

The top line— no. I never once said that.
Here’s a better way to phrase it… I’m trying to convince people to not be swayed by the hyperbolic and extreme. I’m aiming for the middle ground, and not the polemics. If you have enough credible and rational evidence to back up why you feel a certain way, there’s nothing wrong with that. But when the backlash turns extreme and hyperbolic, something is fucked up.

You misunderstood. I’m not saying bandwagoners state opinions loudly, I’m saying other people do-- and thus band-wagoners have a tendency to only notice the overzealous.

Yo, ever see the P4U thread when the trailer for the new Blaz came out?

OMG, I totally can’t wait for the P4U to hit consoles!! Just a few more days.

Blaz CP Trailer comes out

OMG, NEW BLAZ!!! P4U IS CRAP!!!

P4U hasn’t even hit console at this point

Then we got people going, “Can’t wait to play the new Guilty Gear!” when in reality only the vets will stay on that game.

Seriously, the FGC doesn’t even know what it wants.

My brain is too small to enjoy 3 games ahhhhhh