Taking "unnecessary" damage

[Necrotrophic]

this argument is about ONE blanka ball. 1. ichi. uno. the point is that, in the heat of the match, the ryu player MIGHT super as a gut reaction to blocking a ball, thus lose his meter. note that the super WILL KILL YOU ANYWAY. the aspect is ‘risk’ is hardly applicable in this situation since the crux is WHAT ryu kills you with, not ‘if’. lets look at the possible practical outcomes:

1. you sit back, build meter with elec or something in between jumping straight up over fireballs. eventually you lose, next round starts you start with maybe 1/8th more meter and ryu has full meter, which would ACTUALLY make blanka balls risky in the next round.

easy to accomplish, you risk nothing, bad situation for blanka

2. you do a blanka ball and ryu does a low jab or low strong and it trades, and knocks you out. you gain about the same amount of meter as above (as you hit him), and he gains no meter since he already has full meter.

easy to accomplish, ends up bring the same as the situation above (what you recommend), but also leaves the possibility of…

3. you do a blanka ball, ryu player does super on reaction to blocking it. you gain some meter, and ryu starts the next round with 0 meter, making balls viable again.

next round is the best possible situation for blanka, while having the same outcome of the above 2 situations anyway (losing round 1)

so lets look at our choices

1. building very little meter, losing the round, and having no chance at ryu starting the next round with anything less than full super.

risk: nothing (youre losing anyway)
reward: nothing

2/3. building very little meter, losing the round, and having a chance at ryu starting the next round with anything less than full super.

risk: nothing (youre losing anyway)
reward: ryu burns his meter

oh wait i forgot your option lemme get do that

4. you sit back, build meter, play the best ever, ryu makes a series of mistakes that no one will ever make, ever, and you win! nevermind, this is the best option. forget everything i said. you should just win the match! thats clearly the best choice and you should ever consider doing something more practical.

wow! awesome! you won the match! the choice is clear.

sure he might, and thats something youll have to decide on your own but im simply saying that I dont agree with it. Ive noticed that if you can turn it around and win a round that you shouldnt have, you change the momentum of the match and usually win the next round.

The risk is that the person does not waste it and you lose anyway.

Stop being an asshole. You made assumptions that I was talking about absolutes at some point in this argument despite the fact that I am clearly not(your whole argument rests on this, actually). YOU are talking about absolutes, you are assuming the blanka player is DEFINITELY going to lose.

1. you sit back, build meter with elec or something in between jumping straight up over fireballs. eventually you lose, next round starts you start with maybe 1/8th more meter and ryu has full meter, which would ACTUALLY make blanka balls risky in the next round.

Youre making assumptions that the blanka player definitely loses. Youre making assumptions that the blanka player cant avoid the fireballs long enough to build meter. I am not making assumptions. I am simply saying that my preference is that someone tries to change the momentum of the match.

you do a blanka ball and ryu does a low jab or low strong and it trades, and knocks you out. you gain about the same amount of meter as above (as you hit him), and he gains no meter since he already has full meter.

Why do you assune you gain the same meter? Again, you are assuming the person can ONLY gain a little bit. I am not assuming anything. Only you are. Also, hitting the blanka ball doesnt usually lead to a trade. My preference in this situation if i decided to play defensively is to jump the blanka ball, hitting it is just another option.

3. you do a blanka ball, ryu player does super on reaction to blocking it. you gain some meter, and ryu starts the next round with 0 meter, making balls viable again.

This is a risk. He may not do it and you threw the round away because you assumed you are definitely going to lose the round, when theres nothing written in stone saying you will. Changing the momentum of the match is a better idea from my opinion.

next round is the best possible situation for blanka, while having the same outcome of the above 2 situations anyway (losing round 1)

The best possible situation is Blanka winning the previous round and changing the momentum of the match.

1. building very little meter, losing the round, and having no chance at ryu starting the next round with anything less than full super.

risk: nothing (youre losing anyway)
reward: nothing

Not true. You risk losing the round, because you arent definitely losing the round. I am not willing to accept the basic part of the argument that one will definitely lose the round because it is fundamentally flawed and accepting it doesnt make sense. If thats the way you choose to play the game, thats fine. I am simply providing information from my point of view

Sitting back and building meter wasnt the only option I gave.

Stop acting like a ten year old. Its making youre bad arguments come off even worse

[omfg]

if he’s aware of that, then you just scored free chip damage and you built some meter.

which is the entire point of the thread.

jesus.

first of all, you’re incorrect but I don’t even want to argue that anymore

it’s because the players are human that I think you shouldn’t use it. at least, not for the reason of wasting his super. for instance if he’s aware of the tactic he’ll make a conscious effort not to do it. there are mistakes people make though. i don’t think that example is enough to take advantage of a thinking human

next time read, and certainly don’t talk to me like I’m a little kid

[Necrotrophic]

^ um… who are you arguing against? lol

edit: seeing as how you said one blanka ball though I change my mind, I thought the point was to use a series of blanka balls to build meter

I also thought the same thing based off of the original post. I would still tend to go in a different direction though.

[Dandy_J]

sure he might, and thats something youll have to decide on your own but im simply saying that I dont agree with it. Ive noticed that if you can turn it around and win a round that you shouldnt have, you change the momentum of the match and usually win the next round.

The risk is that the person does not waste it and you lose anyway.

Stop being an asshole. You made assumptions that I was talking about absolutes at some point in this argument despite the fact that I am clearly not(your whole argument rests on this, actually). YOU are talking about absolutes, you are assuming the blanka player is DEFINITELY going to lose.

1. you sit back, build meter with elec or something in between jumping straight up over fireballs. eventually you lose, next round starts you start with maybe 1/8th more meter and ryu has full meter, which would ACTUALLY make blanka balls risky in the next round.

Youre making assumptions that the blanka player definitely loses. Youre making assumptions that the blanka player cant avoid the fireballs long enough to build meter. I am not making assumptions. I am simply saying that my preference is that someone tries to change the momentum of the match.

you do a blanka ball and ryu does a low jab or low strong and it trades, and knocks you out. you gain about the same amount of meter as above (as you hit him), and he gains no meter since he already has full meter.

Why do you assune you gain the same meter? Again, you are assuming the person can ONLY gain a little bit. I am not assuming anything. Only you are. Also, hitting the blanka ball doesnt usually lead to a trade. My preference in this situation if i decided to play defensively is to jump the blanka ball, hitting it is just another option.

3. you do a blanka ball, ryu player does super on reaction to blocking it. you gain some meter, and ryu starts the next round with 0 meter, making balls viable again.

This is a risk. He may not do it and you threw the round away because you assumed you are definitely going to lose the round, when theres nothing written in stone saying you will. Changing the momentum of the match is a better idea from my opinion.

next round is the best possible situation for blanka, while having the same outcome of the above 2 situations anyway (losing round 1)

The best possible situation is Blanka winning the previous round and changing the momentum of the match.

1. building very little meter, losing the round, and having no chance at ryu starting the next round with anything less than full super.

risk: nothing (youre losing anyway)
reward: nothing

Not true. You risk losing the round, because you arent definitely losing the round. I am not willing to accept the basic part of the argument that one will definitely lose the round because it is fundamentally flawed and accepting it doesnt make sense. If thats the way you choose to play the game, thats fine. I am simply providing information from my point of view

Sitting back and building meter wasnt the only option I gave.

Stop acting like a ten year old. Its making youre bad arguments come off even worse

oh shit youre right. i agree now that you should just be godlike and win. damn how could i have been so stupid

[Necrotrophic]

Who said anything about being god like? Not me. Dont bother saying I did, because I wont accept that flawed illogical argument either. Having a comeback is not god like. It happens all the time. Blanka, with all his shenanigans is well suited to pull out a bullshit win, which would be great.

[Colorful_Euphemism]

first of all, you’re incorrect but I don’t even want to argue that anymore

“for the purpose of wasting his super”

thats the point of taking the risk (he asked if when it might be a good idea to take a risk).

you are dumb

stop being dumb

[Dandy_J]

Who said anything about being god like? Not me. Dont bother saying I did, because I wont accept that flawed illogical argument either. Having a comeback is not god like. It happens all the time. Blanka, with all his shenanigans is well suited to pull out a bullshit win, which would be great.

nah u good. just be godlike son!

[omfg]

“for the purpose of wasting his super”

thats the point of taking the risk (he asked if when it might be a good idea to take a risk).

you are dumb

stop being dumb

…

you gotta be trolling me. you can’t be this fucking stupid. do you not see that wasting the super was only one advantage of the risk (therefore, not the ONLY reason you take it)? I mean, do you seriously think a player will do something just because you think they will?

oh shit youre right. i agree now that you should just be godlike and win. damn how could i have been so stupid

why are you being so defensive? he said nothing like that. I even agree with him. for instance, it’s just as good a position to just take advantage of whatever mistakes you can in order to build meter instead of doing Blanka ball and hoping he’ll super for the extra meter. if making him super is the point then that’s probably your best option but that doesn’t mean he’s gonna actually super

[Monte]

what would mizoteru do

[Anotak]

i’m going to say what people are being too polite to say but needs to be said regardless:
if you don’t agree with the blanka vs ryu example then you are complete fucking trash at fighting games and you shouldn’t be giving people advice

[omfg]

i’m going to say what people are being too polite to say but needs to be said regardless:
if you don’t agree with the blanka vs ryu example then you are complete fucking trash at fighting games and you shouldn’t be giving people advice

why?

[Necrotrophic]

why?

there is no answer to that.

many people who are on srk are just here trying to act hard as a way to convince themselves they know something.

[omfg]

there is no answer to that.

many people who are on srk are just here trying to act hard as a way to convince themselves they know something.

I want to hear his answer anyway if he’s serious. if he’s just trying to proclaim his dominance over those who disagree, then I don’t care. I do whatever possible to better myself competitively. I’ll shake God’s hand and suck the devil’s toes if it gives me an edge. I’ll make use of whatever I can find

[BIG_FARTLY]

Thanks for the replies so far.

This came to me after watching SoCal HDR finals and Chen said something along the lines of “Daigo is not afraid of taking damage”. I believe the situation was Guile in the corner with Ryu jumping in and they end up trading hits. This makes Ryu stay further away from Guile than he would have been if Guile just blocked I believe, making it easier to deal with being in the corner.

Do I have the right idea?

Since nobody replied to this yet…

Pretty much the right idea, though I’m not sure who has the damage advantage on that trade (I imagine it’s about even). Still, even if you lose on the trade, it’s generally better to take a little damage than block that jumpin since that will probably result in you taking even more damage.

A lot of SF (and SF2 in particular) is about trading damage for positional advantage. Generally people only think of this as not taking big damage opportunities like going for a crossup and instead setting up a fireball trap or whatever, but if this is strategically sound (and it is) it’s only logical that taking damage in order to set up positional advantage is too. Essentially you’re investing your current potential damage in the hopes of doing more damage later.

[bigbossVII]

i’m going to say what people are being too polite to say but needs to be said regardless:
if you don’t agree with the blanka vs ryu example then you are complete fucking trash at fighting games and you shouldn’t be giving people advice

Unfortuneately, this.

If you can get Ryu to burn that meter on a basically dead Blanka, then you have hope for the next round, hell even the current round as well if you’ve played your cards right. Thats a trade I’ll take every day because Blanka balls would be quite a bit more safe without the fear of a 35% health reduction lurking around every blocked ball.

I do this alot in the Guile vs Abel matchup. Though that matchup is drastically in Abel’s favor, Guile does have way better pokes than Abel does. You pretty much have to fight that match without booms, and win it with Guile’s normals. Alot of trades I do make is getting hit by axe kicks. I’d much rather get hit by an axe kick than a standing MK or COD, because both of those have options that lead to a knockdown and more potential mix-up. I’ve fought enough Abels to know which axe kicks to attempt to trade with and which ones to get block as well. Usually Abel will try to roll after the axe kicks, then I’ve sucessfully escaped the situation, because I’m going to throw on Abel’s recovery.

[omfg]

Unfortuneately, this.

If you can get Ryu to burn that meter on a basically dead Blanka, then you have hope for the next round, hell even the current round as well if you’ve played your cards right. Thats a trade I’ll take every day because Blanka balls would be quite a bit more safe without the fear of a 35% health reduction lurking around every blocked ball.

keyword: if

under the assumption that you want a player to waste their super so you try this to get him to do so, i have no problem with the tactic. it’s when you assume the player WILL that I disagree.

edit2: oops. no one in their right mind will agree that Ryu wasting meter = bad for Blanka. your opponent losing ANY kind of power is always a good thing. we’re just saying… will he do it? if you use the tactic on the CHANCE that he might, fine. if you’re using it and you’re saying he WILL? lol. one other huge thing everyone is assuming is that no one’s gonna catch this blanka ball, that it’s just going to be blocked.

[bigbossVII]

keyword: if

under the assumption that you want a player to use their super so you try this, i have no problem with the tactic. it’s when you assume the player WILL do it that problems occur

edit: no one disagrees that getting Ryu to waste meter is bad. your opponent losing ANY kind of power is always a good thing. we’re just saying… will he? if there’s some secret knowledge going on here that some of yall aren’t willing to share, then fine; I’ll go and find it myself. but if you’re just saying “omg just do a blanka ball, the Ryu will alwayz super, you guyz r dumb” then… gl @ peewee evo

Either way, things just don’t look good for Blanka in that position. Even if you don’t get Ryu to burn meter, you can still be doing things like building your own, or slide in a different tactic and see how he handles it. Even though Blanka is losing the fight in this round doesn’t exactly mean the learning the opponent stops. I don’t necessarily know Blanka’s options in that specific matchup, but I know I would at least try to get him to burn meter (because I’d be gaining in the process) by throwing some different rainbow looks, jab balls, and trying to slide under hadous, or even catch a c. mk with a slide. I definitely wouldn’t be holding back in that perspective, because for the most part, I have nothing to lose but the round.

Last time I checked playing lame without the life lead only leads to a time out with the opponent winning by time out, or being chipped to death.

[omfg]

Either way, things just don’t look good for Blanka in that position. Even if you don’t get Ryu to burn meter, you can still be doing things like building your own, or slide in a different tactic and see how he handles it. Even though Blanka is losing the fight in this round doesn’t exactly mean the learning the opponent stops. I don’t necessarily know Blanka’s options in that specific matchup, but I know I would at least try to get him to burn meter (because I’d be gaining in the process) by throwing some different rainbow looks, jab balls, and trying to slide under hadous, or even catch a c. mk with a slide. I definitely wouldn’t be holding back in that perspective, because for the most part, I have nothing to lose but the round.

Last time I checked playing lame without the life lead only leads to a time out with the opponent winning by time out, or being chipped to death.

lol damn you responded to my unedited post. so many errors in that. anyway yeah, definitely wasn’t trying to give some “never give up” speech or anything, play the way you want… just make sure it works

[bigbossVII]

I see. It definitely sounded like the never give up type of thing lol.

[BIG_FARTLY]

keyword: if

under the assumption that you want a player to waste their super so you try this to get him to do so, i have no problem with the tactic. it’s when you assume the player WILL that I disagree.

edit2: oops. no one in their right mind will agree that Ryu wasting meter = bad for Blanka. your opponent losing ANY kind of power is always a good thing. we’re just saying… will he do it? if you use the tactic on the CHANCE that he might, fine. if you’re using it and you’re saying he WILL? lol. one other huge thing everyone is assuming is that no one’s gonna catch this blanka ball, that it’s just going to be blocked.

this is such an utterly platitudinous point