Trade ultra is broken. It promotes sloppy play. What was capcom thinking when trading a move results in more damage then landing a clean hit? Its not just broken for sagat, I dont think anybody should be able to trade into ultra- its a stupid game mechanic and something I really hope capcom fixes in Super 4. In the meantime If its useful make use of it…
Yeah, please keep this kind of garbage out of here. This thread isn’t for complaining k thnx.
yo EL lets play!
No, I’m good.
Damnit I hate your dodge rating.! 
It’s all about raw ultra’s now. I’m too lazy to even use combo’s anymore. My seth game leveled up my buffer setups. I’m always buffering. Sagat’s footsies don’t have to be that complex, his tiger shots are his footsies. st.lk xx ts. Thing is, smart players will pick up that pattern and fadc through the tiger shot, that’s where you buffer comes in - or just mix up with safe knees. Sagat is so broken it’s hilarious. Between safe knees, tiger shots and DP’s and the equivalent kara’s you don’t need much in terms of footsies. Best way to train your footsies is just to hop online and not use any special moves or combos - just poke the shit out of people. When I first started playing I didn’t know a single combo so I relied on my normals, once you know how your normals work footsies become self explanatory so long as you understand spacing - and that comes with practice.
I want to play also!
Nah, me first son.
Ya foo lets get some rounds in son
wtf?..look at these trolls!!
You are all gay. Just wanted to let you know that.
On topic: Bah tired. I’ll post some new shit tomorrow.
Hahaha. Oh, I sooooooooooooooooo lazy. But I got new shit to talk about. This is gonna be a double post. First thing imma talk about is just some little things to improve your gameplay.
Make your strings tighter - Alot of the time I’m watching vids of players, yes top players and they do really loose strings. Hell they probably do it without even thinking. Things like low jab to stand short. Ok ,so stand short has good range and is good for stuffing alot of moves, but that’s a 6 frame gap right there. Your opponent could easily just counter poke you or backdash or just walk back and get out your pressure for free. Make yo shit tighter guys. Replace that jab with a low short and then do stand short or stand jab if they are close enough. Stand jab hits on frame 5 while stand short hits on frame 6. Sometimes that one frame is the difference between keeping the pressure on your opponent or getting poked yourself and losing momentum. In general if you end with a jab you need to let your string end or cancel into a special for added pressure. If you REALLY wanna keep pressuring then just do another jab. Sagat’s low jab actually has better range then it seems and a 3 frame gap is better then a 6 frame gap that’s for damn sure.
Be smarter with shots - If you find your opponent is closing the gap on you too easily on the ground it’s probably because you are being dumb about how you use your shots and the speeds you use. General rule of thumb is slow shots when you want to push people out and they are advancing and use faster shots at longer distances. Why? So by the time that slow shot reaches them and pushes them back Sagat will have already recovered or gone through most of his recovery and can throw another shot. If you throw a fast shot it will reach them sooner and Sagat will not recover in time to throw another before they are able to start advancing again. Slow shots really work wonders vs people with good walk speeds like Chun and Rog for example that really want to walk into your space and then begin footsies.
Ok, now back to the wake-up madness
Chun-Li
Wake-up Options
EX SBK - Hits on frame 6. Has invincibility on frames 1-7. -18 on block. Ok ,so no meaty trap here folks, but HOLY SHIT this move is unsafe as fuck. Point blank you get raw ultra or low forward xx fierce TU. A little but further you get reversal TU. If you are even further out when you block you get kara TU. Also you can safe jump OS this. So safe jump with rh buffer TU. Beats this option AND backdash. Good shit.
EX Hazan Shu - Hits on frame 26. Invincibility on frames 1-14. This will completely whiff over your head and she will land behind you if you were very close to her on wake-up. Punish with low forward xx fierce TU. If you aren’t so close that it will whiff you should be able to react to it and at least block in time in which case you get no punish. If you train yourself to react you should be able to TU this a good part of the time. Remember not to attempt to FA this since it’s a reversal in this case which breaks armor.
Backdash - Chun’s best option hands down. Total frames is 22 with a distance of 1.3. Sagat can Kara TU this or TK it if he expects it. If you have 2 bars then go for it. Otherwise you are really going to have to feel your opponent out. I played Smoothcat last night online (5 bars FTW!!!) and he had a thing for backdashing when he had meter. He knew it would make me uncomfortable since I wanted to draw out EX SBK so I could punish it. This is what you need to consider when playing smart opponents. That said safe jump OS TU hurts this and puts her back on the ground. If you meaty and she backdashes don’t fret. She did your work for you. She created space and put herself closer to the corner. If you really wanna pressure her then you can throw a tiger shot, kara knee or dash up and poke. Backdash happy Chun’s are prey for cross-ups so keep that in mind.
Super - All versions hit on frame 1 after super flash. MK and HK versions only have one frame of invincibility. LK version has invincibility on frames 1-3. Try to meaty a Chun with full bar and you risk eating this and an untechable knockdown where she can do safe jump set-ups and ambiguous DF + HK nonsense. Not worth it IMO. These are all horrendously unsafe on block. They are all over -30 on block. Punish with w/e you want really.
Ultra - Hits on frame 6 after flash. So it is possible to meaty this although you must be perfect. -47 on block with invincibility on frames 1-7. Bait it with a meaty if you are good enough, otherwise just block if you think it’s coming.
Best Wake-up options
EX SBK and Backdash
Basic Gameplan
This is a very different kind of wake-up game depending on whether or not Chun has meter. If she doesn’t she is pretty free. Meaty low short pressure and push her into the corner. Expect backdashes occasionally so don’t get flustered if she gets way. Either way you are still pushing her to the corner. Mix in tick throws and cross-ups. When she gets meter however, everything changes. Backdash gets even more viable since you wanna bait an ex reversal and punish accordingly. Cross-ups also get riskier since EX SBK will blow you away if you try to do a normally timed cross-up. With full meter pressuring isn’t even that much of an option anymore since the risk is so great. Chun on wake-up with meter is more psychological just as it is with anyone that has a DP type move. It’s just feeling your opponent out and sometimes taking a risk. If you block an EX SBK rock her for it and if she gets predictable with backdashes make her pay with a kara TU.
In the corner
She loses backdash here. Again with no meter it should be over. With meter you have to respect her a bit more. If she is counting on that then do the opposite. Disrespect 'ol thunder thighs all fuckin day. Meaty grabs, meaty tk’s, etc. Try to stick close to her so she feels the pressure of Sagat even if you aren’t actually hitting buttons. Just being in her face will make her feel pressured to want to do something, even if that something is just sit on block till she thinks she has an opening. Be aware she might try to wall jump so be ready to punish that.
Be ready for some good shit later guys. I’m still working on it though.
Edit: Forgot to mention that all versions of Hazan Shu are considered air borne on frame 1. So mix in meaty TK’s when she doesn’t have meter to keep her guessing. And if she blocks then hey you have frame advantage and can pressure from there.
Man, I had no idea you’d posted anything new. I rarely visit the Sagat threads anymore, since they are mostly garbage save for this thread and the video thread.
I am definitely guilty of using weak strings. I think my problem is that I try to get too experimental in mixing up my strings and I start using shit that isn’t all that safe. I’ve also been told numerous times that my shots are extremely predictable, so I’m guilty of that as well. Yet, I still don’t really understand how? I already use a lot of slower shots in the Rog match-up, but I’m going to try and make better use of them in other match-ups in the future.
I’ve only just begun to develop my wake-up game, and I’m doing good to utilize simple OS, so most of this info might still be a little advanced for me to take full advantage of. However, it’s nice to still see fresh information coming in, despite the fact that the rest of the Sagat threads are content to idly waste away.
Hey~ gotta a quick question to throw your way
lk TK has (2*12) 14 total active frames and is said to put you at a -7 disadvantage on block. Does that mean that if you space it right, you get a +6 advantage at most? Also, when going for a c.lk xx lk tk, given the fact that you are closer to the opponent, approximately how much of that advantage is shaved off? And how many more frames are shaved off if the opponent blocks your TK while standing?
I do realize that you probably won’t be able to give me precise numbers but I’d just like to know if blocking is really my only option when getting pressured by TK loops (I play bison).
Thanks
The way you would calculate the maximum frame advantage is the same as a meaty. You leave one active frame and then add the difference to the frames on block. Brento I think that 2 had you fooled sir. Remember that TK is hits. That 2 is for the first hit, and for TK frame trap you ignore that since the goal is to his with the second hit. So the formula looks like this. 11 + -7 = +4. So Sagat can be at +4 at the most. On AVERAGE he will usually be at +2 since it’s hard to get that perfect spacing for that +4. +4 is what Sagat will usually be at if he does a meaty TK or +3. Sagat will be at +0 or +1 if the spacing on the TK trap was good enough for him to be safe, but not amazing. If his spacing was REALLY on point then he will be at +3. For the most part the Sagat player is feeling his frame advantage through knowledge of spacing and prior experience.
If the opponent is standing and the TK was still spaced well then you can expect Sagat to be anywhere between -2 to +0. If the TK was only spaced assuming the opponent would crouching and then standing completely ruins the spacing then Sagat will be worse off. Probably around -3.
Dictator can do plenty. As soon as you see the TK just react with an EX Crusher or teleport backwards. Just work on your reactions. You can also stand to reduce his frame advantage, then try to backdash, low short, or grab. Alot of it is going to depend on how good you are at feeling how much frame advantage Sagat has and being able to react quickly.
Repeated TK strings are somewhat overrated and everyone in the game has some basic, but effective answers.
Ok, so moving on from that I have some more stuff I wanna go over.
Positional advantage vs Damage - Ok, so Sagat’s hit confirm into fierce TU. That’s just how we roll. But why? I’ll watch vids of Dr.Chaos’ Ken, where he can hit confirm into Tatsu or DP and often times he DP’s. Why? Because Ken wants that knockdown. He has so much wake-up nonsense and ambiguous stuff that he can overwhelm someone just for blocking wrong on wake-up. Sagat’s wake-up is different in that he relies less on guess work and more on sheer force and frame data backing him up and it’s only vs certain chars. Anything else is a mix-up. No, no that’s not where Sagat gets his positional advantage. Sagat’s main positional advantage comes from having his opponent at a distance and/or in the corner. How do we get this advantage with combos? By hit confirming or comboing into TK over TU. Now if you are fighting someone with an abysmal wake-up then I leave it to you. Personally I would rather have Rufus on the floor in front of me then to knock him away. But when you have someone in the corner the advantage Sagat gains is pretty sizable and it’s very difficult for an opponent to get out of the corner unscathed. I would definitely go for a combo ending in TK over TU when fighting shotos or anyone with a decent wake-up game. You won’t be able to do much with a knockdown other then mix-up but if you put them in the corner, you can gain momentum and force them to play on your terms much more easily. And this isn’t just for hit confirms either, but for anytime you see an easy combo opportunity. Off an FA crumple, TU FADC, high step kick, a punish combo or a jump in. There are many opportunities to just throw a TK in there and get that positional advantage that could very well be the deciding factor of the match. So, try going for the TK combo and see how it affects your game.
Another thing I have been looking at alot lately is the different kinds of frame traps as well as how to beat OS tech consistently and the different ways we can go about that. This was inspired by the Bison forums thread on Bison’s frame trap so thanks for the inspiration guys. I had been meaning to do this for awhile, but never got around to it.
There are two types frame traps in this game to beat two different things. Anti mashing frame traps and Anti OS tech frame traps. Anti mashing frame traps usually don’t have a wide gap in frames. Usually the gap is 2 frames. Just enough to let a mashing jab go through it’s start-up then get stuffed by your attack. Anti OS tech traps have wider gaps. This is because when someone OS techs they are trying to find your rhythm so they can time a late tech. This is because the late tech allows absolute guard to take out alot of the risk of attempting this. If they mistime the tech they will just block if you did a string. So you need to leave a wider gap to let their OS tech attempt go through and then you can stuff the c.lk when it comes out. So let’s go over those.
Anti mashing frame traps
On Block
cr.lk > cr.lk
cr.lk > cr.mp
cr.lk > far st.lp
cr.lk > st.hk
st.lp > st.lp
st.lp > cr.mp
TK > cr.lp
TK > cr.mp
TK > st.lp
FA lvl 2 DC > cr.lk
FA lvl 2 DC > st.hk
FA lvl 2 DC > cr.mp
On Hit
cr.lp > cr.lk
cr.lp > cr.mp
cr.lp > st.hk
Several of these are just natural block strings like the cr.lk traps and the far st.lp traps as well. Sagat’s normal pressure strings act as traps for mashers. He is basically designed to punish mashers. The FA stuff is just a little bit extra. After blocked FA lvl 2 dash cancel you are at +4. So those follow-ups all leave only a 1 frame gap. The Tiger Knee follow-ups will need your own judgment. Usually cr.lp is the safest easiest thing to do that will stuff anything except an invincible move of course. But you can opt for other options as well. The traps on hit are just really good if you noticed you nailed a quick jab, but didn’t react fast enough to cancel into it or you just didn’t buffer. Of course you could go for another cr.lp for the link, but the frame trap is an option as well. Generally the most reliable traps are just the basic ones. cr.lk strings that lead to easy hit confirms or mix-ups. If they mash just go into your combo. If they keep block you can mix-up between overhead, tick throw, cross-up, etc. You have options and that’s what you want and it’s part of what makes Sagat a strong character. FA lvl 2 is also solid for starting up a pressure strings that can lead to potential counter hits. Most of these only leave a 2 frame gap while others leave a 1 frame gap.
Anti OS Tech frame traps
cr.lk > cl.mp
cr.lk > cl.mk
cr.lk > st.mk
cr.lk > cr.hp
cr.lk > cr.hk
cr.lk > cr. mk
st.lp > st.mk
st.lp > cr.mk
st.lp > cr.hk
st.lp > cr.hp
Most of these have a 4 frame gap, while the ones ending in cr.hk or cr.hp have a 5 frame gap. Generally when someone is trying to OS tech they have a rhythm they are pressing cr.lk+lp too. They are trying to feel you out and low short strings have a pretty easy rhythm to them. So by doing a move that leaves a much wider gap you are giving the os tech a chance to come out, which your next move stuffs before their cr.lk becomes active. These are all on block BTW. If you get the sweep that’s really good vs safe jumpable chars since safe jump OS TU is really fucking good and beats alot of wake-up options or you can opt for safe jump OS TK if you are fighting a character with a teleport and you feel they will tele. I personally love the tech traps that use cr.mk, cr.hk, cl.mk, and st. mk. The mk ones are really great IMO. With the st. mk you are looking to see if you nailed that counter hit and if you did you can link into a TU since the frame advantage on CH for mediums is +3 added on to w/e it normally is. In this case you would be at +6. With close mk if you get that hit in, you are at +3 and close enough to link into cr.lp xx TU. cr.mk tech trap is just really nice and easy since you can cancel into a TS after that or a TK for added pressure and just go from there. cr.hp can be good if you just feel you need that extra frame for their os tech attempt to come out so you can stuff it and you want extra damage. You can link into a TU off of this as well on CH if you are close enough, since you would be at +7. Not even that hard since that’s a 3 frame link. You could link into a super as well, if you wanna be mega pro lololol.
Ok, so that’s relying more on frame data to beat OS tech, but there are other ways as well. I’ll go over some really basic strats to beat os tech.
Ways to beat OS Tech
cr.lk walk forward a bit then do a normal (cr.lp, cr.lk , cr.mp, cl.mp,st.hk or cl.mk)
Just a really basic simple way to try to bait an OS tech and stuff it with a normal and then pressure from there. This works better on opponents that react to someone walking towards them and then attempting the OS tech.
cr.lk walk forward then late grab
You are basically trying to grab their late tech attempt. Remember if you didn’t grab in time for them to tech then the low short comes out which you can grab.
cr.lk then walk forward TU
You are just blowing through them completely. If you have 2 bars this is risk free.
cr.lk walk forward then EX TK
Great in the corner. Similar to when Ryu does EX tatsu to beat OS tech attempts. If you do this outside of corner you just end up flying over your opponents head. But in corner if they block you just land behind them and there is a hitbox behind you as well, so as you come down they will be put in blockstun and you will have frame advantage.
cr.lk wait then low TS
Again, giving your opponent that small gap and just throwing a shot right in their face to punish that attempt to abuse the engine.
Keep in mind these are just basic effective ways to beat OS tech and there are others. Experiment and see what you can come up with on your own. I hope this was informative. OK, now with that out of the way I will jump right back into some more wake-up nonsense with the next character.
El Fuerte
Wake-up Options
Backdash - Start off with the universal option. The fastest backdash in the game at 19 frames. Distance is average at 0.8. Has only 7 invincibility frames, instead of the usual 8. This would be very hard to punish on reaction though if you stuck out a low short, but it still doesn’t do Elf all that much good since he doesn’t really go anywhere. If you bait this, just sweep him. If you have meter you can try your hand with a kara TU since it will be free.
Guacamole Leg Throw - All versions have invincibility. lk version its frames 1-4. mk version is frames 1-5. hk and EX versions is frames 1-7. Some Elfs may use this to try escape, but this is an easy punish. cr.mk xx TU or just sweep. EX version goes kinda far so you will probably have to sweep anyway. Just bait with low short and you are good to go. This can catch meaty TK so be careful.
Habanero Dash Back EX - 2 hits worth of hyper armor on this. REALLY good escape. Since it’s an armor move it will die to meaty TK and meaty grabs will beat it too. Since TK is a bit riskier, I would suggest going for the grab if you suspect this move. If you meaty low short this expect him to Tortilla grab you or Tostada press you. You might be able to react in time and avoid this if you keep your eyes open.
Super - Best version is lk version. Hits on frame 3 after super flash. Invincibility on frames 1-7. Nothing much to say here. If you meaty low short this, you will eat it. This is -15 on block. Safer then most supers for sure, but still very punishable.
Ultra - Grabs on frame 4 after flash. Invincibility on frames 1-10. Interesting thing about this is, I have meatied this countless times and never gotten grabbed. I just hold up after the Ultra start-up animation and avoid the Ultra completely then combo Elf on the way down with neutral j.mk, cr.mk xx TU. *shrug So yeah, from my own personal experience I’m gonna say the frame data is either incorrect or it might just be some other kind of collision/hitbox detection/interaction issue going on when Sagat does a meaty low short and Elf ultras. Either way you don’t have too much to fear here on wake-up. He can still use this to catch meaty grabs or meaty TK’s though so watch out.
Best options
Backdash, EX Habanero Dash Back, Super
Basic Gameplan
It all depends on whether or not Elf has meter. If he doesn’t expect him to backdash or just wait it out and block. So mix in cross-ups, meaty overheads, meaty grabs and feel free to rely more on low short traps. If he has meter, but not super then sooner or later EX Habanero will come out. If he knows you are waiting for it then most likely he will sit on the bar and try to use it when you don’t expect it. If that’s the case play your normal game, but sometimes just block on his wake-up or do an early low short that’s not a meaty to bait a response. Same thing goes when he has Super. It’s the only reversal he has that can really rock most of your options. If you can draw it out and block it to punish then great. but when he has full super be wary about how low short happy you get. It’s not worth the risk of eating a combo for large damage AND getting knocked down and subjected to knockdown loops. A good elf won’t rely on leg throw too much unless you get TK happy, but if it’s gets baited then it’s an easy punish. Don’t sweat Ultra TOO much, especially if you tend to rely more on low short like I do. But if he is sitting on Ultra and super then things get trickier. You may find yourself just blocking a bit more. You can also do kara TU’s when he’s waking up since that will avoid or catch several of his options. Only thing that will flat out lose to is EX Habanero dash back into w/e.
In the Corner
Elf loses his backdash, so if he doesn’t have meter you will probably take it. If you give him breathing room expect him to attempt a wall jump sooner or later. He may jump at you and try to attack or he may just try to get away, but be aware of his options and react accordingly if you can or try to keep him pinned down in the first place.
Whew, long post guys but I like it. Hopefully it helped you all out.
Thanks a lot for the tips Emblem, especially the Anti OS Tech frame traps. I used to just delay c.mp after c.lk so instead of being a 2 frame trap it’d have a wider gap and counter hit them or stuff their attempts, but c.lk>c.hp sounds so good, not to mention it’s damaging. c.lk>c.hk sounds risky since you’re -6 on block, while with c.hp it’s 0, but a knockdown is better than a hit, so there’s that risk/reward factor. Btw for habanero dash back ex what I like to do is meaty low short, and buffer a DP without the button afterwards. If my opponent performs the move he focus absorbs the short backwards and usually tries to go for tortilla grab. But thanks to buffer I TU as he’s coming to me, adding to sweet damage along with knockdown.
Yeah, this stuff is spacing and character dependent. Sweep trap works better if you aren’t point blank in range and if you aren’t facing someone with a really fast punishing move with alot of range. I would not suggest doing a sweep trap vs a fellow Sagat at point blank range. You could be supered, hit with st.short xx TS or even reversal TUed.
i dunno how u can beat chuns up close jesus
Pressuring Chun-Li is easy. Playing footsies is a nightmare.
I think Sagat’s tiger uppercut should do more damage. His tiger knee could also use more priority than what it has. I also think his defence and health should be higher. Moreover his ex tiger shot should be his normal one and the ex version should do more damage and shouldnt allow you to quickstand. Plus his focus attack should have a wider hitbox and it should stun as quick as cammy’s or fei long’s. Also he should be able to kara in to a high jump like viper’s. He also needs faster walking speed and a way better dash. 