just to cover my ass to all the non believers…
[media=youtube]V6E96kToATo[/media]
1:32 - attempt 1 success
2:15 - attempt 2 failed since viper did not quick get up
bonus treat…freebie #2: back throw safe jump (same vid)
4:25
like i said, sagat has many ways to safe jump. why did i now start posting here? hell if i know. oh, now i do…
ill probably have haters on me for my approach, but at least i delivered. more time testing, less time assuming. :tdown:
And I did test. Don’t talk like I’m not doing my part ok?
Sorry if I sound hostile but I think your statement needs to be directed at less productive members of the Sagat forums and not someone who is really trying to his part for our community.
You took one sentence out of context sir. Right after that I said I wasn’t sure, but that I would start testing and I did.
This is pointless anyway. Less arguing and less assumptions and more leveling up Sagat.
ok, i actaully do believe you did testing, but not well enough.
as for me, i dont really care to be productive member on a sagat thread as i have my own opinions of posters on SRK. i came on here to correct a wrong assumption.
you are doing more than your part. this sagat thread has become very popular. never said you werent doing your part. you read way too far into it. all i said was less assumptions.
short version, sagat players here have ALOT of training to do. you think you are leveling up, but its only minuscule. and i agree, less arguing, more leveling up. this is a good thread.
Ok so here is some random stuff I have been doing/working on.
A new BnB hit confirm that works on more then half of the cast when they stand and works on everyone if they are crouching. It’s c.lk x 2, c.mp xx hp TU. This combos does 251 damage. That’s 25.1% of someone’s health that has average life. That’s also 48 more points then his basic BnB of c.lk x 2, c.lp xx hp TU which does 203. Timing is a bit tighter on the first combo, but the damage boost, stun increase and meter increase is well worth it. This combo seems to work well on big characters and characters that seem to have a wide stance. So chars like Gief, Chun, Abel, Fei, etc.
At mid range people love to hang out just beyond mk TK range so if you whiff it they get an easy punish. Tiger shots are riskier since a quick jump in could equal a free combo or they could just FA right through your shot and start to pressure or punish. There are other ways around this of course. Usually the best way is just to jump back and completely reset the spacing, but if you are like me then you want to punish your opponents arrogance in thinking such a basic tactic can shut you down.
So here is f+lk to the rescue. This links into low jab xx hp TU for a respectable 216 points of damage. You could also link into low jab xx low TS if you don’t trust your timing that much. Now of course this doesn’t reach as far as your mk TK so you will need to walk forward just a bit, but if your opponent is not expecting it or they want to block high because they expect a TK and they don’t want you to get as much advantage off of it, then you can expect this to hit more often then not. Best part is, since the move is on the slower side you can easily hit confirm it off the very first hit alone and it’s safe on block.
If you know the combo ending in TU won’t reach just end with TS instead. f+lk WILL reach at a range where mk TK misses BUT you won’t be close enough to combo anything after it. Still a little way to annoy your opponent when they try to hang at that range and they aren’t doing anything.
Alternatively, you can opt to do kara lk tk to get in their face and it will be safe. You don’t seem to get much advantage off of it though when you do it at that range and they block it standing. You would kara with f+hk.
If you’re going to combo into c.mp, you might as well omit the second c.lk. You’ll soon find that you have to be really close when you start the combo for the TU not to wiff at the end.
My main BnB is c.lk, c.mp tigershot (with FADC on hit confirm), and even with one light kick, the TU has a huge chance of missing unless you’re really deep. Though honestly if you are comboing into c.mp at all, tigershot is a lot safer since it never wiffs, and when you do c.lk c.mp (wiffed) TU, you can’t FADC out or anything and you’re wide open for punishment. Use it in real match for a while and you’ll quickly see it’s a risky maneuver. Though I highly suggest learning tigershot FADC combos, (CH) c.mp c.mp tigershot c.mp TU is fun as shit.
You do have to be close, but honestly if we are all striving to play on a high level then spacing should be second nature. And for some char’s you don’t even need to be super close. Chars like Chun and Rufus for example eat this combo with ease since they are so fucking wide.
Also another hit confirm is c.lk, c.mp, c.lp xx hp TU. This one does 263 points of damage. Remember that damage is scaled on the third hit. So the damaging low strong gets it’s maximum amount of damage while the light attack gets scaled which isn’t a big deal at all.
I haven’t messed with this combo to know how viable it is…but it’s fuckin sexy that’s for sure.
just got done reading all the pages…all 15.
quick question. what is the next level?
A level beyond what he is being played now I suppose.
Look the title just sounds cool so I used it. lol.
Mostly though I chose it because I was disappointed with the level of play in US tournies and I wanted to delve deeper into what Sagat is capable of. That’s not to say I think US gats are bad. More like I feel US gats didn’t feel the need to get much better because they did well in tournies with basic gameplay. This is just generalization though and there are some US gats here and there that I feel bring out his full potential or close to it anyway.
focus attacking is a great tool… for baiting jump ins
also if your having a fireball fight you can fadc fowrward a fireball and most of the time player will throw another fireball and you can jump and get them for free
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this a 1-frame link? I saw this combo somewhere, and I have a lot of trouble connecting the c.lp.
Isn’t c.lk, c.mp a frame trap on block? In that case, this combo would be useful against people that get antsy up close.
Also, I’m sorry if this has been previously covered or is just blatantly obvious, but what is the input for the OS TU and TK?
c.lk, c.mp is a frame trap since you’re at +3 on block, and c.mp takes 5 frames to be active. 5-3= 2frames they are free, but unfortunately jab are 3 frames, so if they stick out a jab that c.mp will counterhit em for good, and it will teach them to not jab up close when you’re pressuring them. Also c.mp is +1 on block, so it leads into another frame trap with c.lp since it takes 3 frames to come out, another 2f of trap for them.
Yes, it is a one frame link. Just practice it. You will be fine. It’s actually one of the easier one frame links because you have lots of time to confirm it with your eyes.
Most of Sagat’s pressure strings are frame traps actually. c.lk x 2 or 3 is a frame trap. c.lk to c.mp as well. c.lk x 2 to s.lp. Anything that leaves a gap that isn’t wide enough for a jab to actually become active is a solid frame trap and Sagat has alot of those kinds of strings which is why he tends to get counter hits alot.
Input for OS special is just df light attack then f+any kick. Then you do df, f + hp if you want fierce TU or mk/hk depending on which you TK you want. You need to be fast and this is basically one smooth input.
So basically if they blocked the light attack you will tiger shot, if they backdashed you will either TU or TK depending on what button you pressed. You are buffering the Tiger Shot and then doing a TU or a TK after you buffer.
Err… why not just c.lk c.mp TU? That’s plenty of time to hit confirm really…
:db:+:lk: , :df:+:mp:, :d:, (:db: or :df:+:hp:)
I do it all the time.
Well with an extra hit this is a bit easier and does more damage, more stun and builds more meter. So I don’t see both wouldn’t be good to add to your arsenal.
I mean why limit yourself?
Also hit confirming off two hits on the ground isn’t exactly super easy anyway. There is a reason the most common hit confirm with Sagat is c.lk x 3 link to TU. It’s just easier with 3 hits and more consistent in terms of hitting it in high pressure situations.
Edit: Meh, might as well add some more bull shit to this post. And by bullshit I mean high level goodness.
So the easiest safe jump set-up Sagat has at mid screen is double f+hk. This works off trade as well. It’s the same principal as TU FADC f+hk. You can also TU (trade) f+hk and safe jump as well. In corner a generic safe jump is just neutral jump mk. This would be off of a throw.
I have been using alot more low strong and low forward to set-up for TK strings and TS is a tight follow-up after that. This way if I TS they can’t jump out like sometimes bitches will do with stand short or low jab because they are disrespectful fucks. Sorry, that shit just pisses me off when I see someone jump out of blocked short to ts. like wtf? But yeah anyway the mediums also give you 3 extra frames of block stun making your tk strings a little bit tighter which is also nice.
Also a random dumb trick I use that works because people love to be disrespectful.
Empty cross up TU. Basically your opponent is looking for your cross up so they can block then mash out a grab to stop your follow-up. So with this there is no cross-up then u just buffer a TU and blow them away. This usually works once per round.
Been using roundhouse less and less. The move is overrated IMO. Stand forward is my shit. Gonna talk about it more sometime, but it eats alot of shit for free and if it counter hits and you are close enough it links into hp TU for good damage.
Roundhouse is a solid whiff punisher though so if someone whiffs a random normal in your face like Gouki with his own roundhouse or Ken with his step kick will free to shove tiger thigh down their throats.
I think I might take a little break from the wake-up stuff and talk about Sagat’s footsies.
Be excited and just to make sure you are pumped lemme say two things.
Sagat’s footsies don’t suck
He has some of the best footsie tools in the game.
I wasn’t aware it did more damage. If you decide to FADC is the jab still worth the scaling? I’d check but I got red ringed :crybaby:
As for the two hit confirms, I’ve got to say SF4 hit confirms are way easy thanks to the easy input system, just have to hold down and slide between :db: and :df: during the combo really…
if you jumped out of gief’s ultra very early in your jump startup (like it’s hard to tell that you even jumped), then mash ultra during the flash because the jump startup gives you throw invincibility and you can cancel the very first like 2-3 frames of jump startup to ultra
I would think Gief’s ultra was too quick, good find. You can do a lot with the ultra freeze frame; I did a Kara-ultra with it before. I remember someone random ultraing right when I started to F+HK kara something, and was just starting the step kick during the ultra-freeze, and buffered the ultra and kara canceled when the freeze ended. It was upsetting for my opponent. Though I would think Gief might grab you out of a F+HK before you can even ultra. But any other character will generally lose to the destructive tiger punch
If you’re about to eat an ultra because you tapped a button, just try to Kara cancel into your own ultra, it doesn’t hurt to try if you’re about to eat an ultra anyways. EX TU works too.
In response to all the c. lk c.lk c. mp combos, you might as well plink them if you can’t get the timing down, you’ll end up with c. jab or c. mp xx hp TU. It’s always worth it IMO. I don’t plink with Sagat, but this would probably be one of the things it’s worth using for on him. Plinking seems to come in handy with other characters more. (Ryu, Rufus etc)
Man, explaining footsies is such a monumental task. There is so much that goes into it. Spacing, risk vs reward, hitbox ranges, recovery on pokes, the best pokes to use, counter pokes, what your goal is, knowing your opponent’s goal, how well you can affect spacing with walk speed etc.
You know what? Lemme just let sonic hurricane do most of the leg work and I’ll just go from there. lol. Check out these links for an introduction to footsies and a deeper explanation as well as examples.
http://sonichurricane.com/?p=460
http://sonichurricane.com/?cat=8
Read those and then continue reading this. Yeah, I took the lazy way out for once. lol.
Sagat’s Footsies
Common misconceptions and goals
Ok, so now you have a good idea of what footsies are all about. Basically it’s zoning at mid range to control space and your opponent’s options with a very specific goal in mind. Now the general idea among the SFIV community is that Sagat has poor footsies, But I’m here to tell that is just a flat out lie. He DOES have poor walk speed which limits how his footsies are applied, but that doesn’t make them bad. Just different. He can’t do some common footsie tricks like walk in and out of someone’s zone to bait something and being very aggressive with his footsies is a bit tougher. Instead his footsies tend to be a little more reactive and based more around counter poking and whiff punishing.
During footsies the primary goal is usually to score a knockdown, but there can be other goals as well and Sagat excels at these other goals. They are as follows.
Get an opponent to do something easily punishable, like whiff a move or try to jump in because they aren’t gaining any ground in the footsie war or they are being outpoked. This way you can nail an easy whiff punish or land an easy TU if they decide to jump.
Make an opponent turtle up so you can start close range pressure/mix-ups. By going on the defensive they give you momentum and then you can start to put the pressure on them.
Create space or get them to back off so you can zone. This is Sagat’s main game and what he excels at. If you don’t wanna play footsies for long you can just focus on poking them back out so you can zone.
So as you can see although Sagat isn’t an ace at nailing knockdowns due to average sweep range he is still really good at the other goals of footsies which still gives him a strong footsie game. This is mainly because he is great at counter poking and alot of his pokes have great range which helps mitigate the fact that his walk speed is slow. Also his great FA is awesome for punishing randomly thrown out sweeps. Let me delve in further will all of Sagat’s footsie options and give a rundown of them.
Stand short - Hits on frame 6. Only -1 on blocking making it very safe. This poke has the best range out of Sagat’s normals. As much range as Boxer’s sweep. This is your main poking tool when your opponent’s aren’t that close to you. This move is a great whiff punisher vs shoto low forward, other low forwards, Rose’s/Vega’s slide and sweeps. It can be cancelled into a low tiger shot for added pressure/damage or a TK to begin close range pressure. Be aware that at close to max range opponents can jump out of stand short to TS pressure before the shot connects and the same with a cancel into TK so don’t always cancel into a special at that range. Sometimes just let the stand short hit then do nothing and wait. If your opponent jumped then free TU for you. This move is one of your main pokes for footsies.
Stand jab - Slightly more range then low short and slightly less range then stand forward. Hits on frame 5. This move has a total frames of 12 and it’s recovery is only 5 frames making it a good move to just whiff during footsies to bait something then punish. Also good for faking Tiger Shots. This is +3 on block as well making it good for when you want to push your momentum with a frame trap and your opponent was turtling.
Stand Roundhouse - This move was very overrated back in the beginnings of SFIV, but it still has it’s place. It’s not nearly as spammable as it was originally made out to be since Sagat is very unsafe on block if only the close hit is blocked and the second whiffs, but when used intelligently it’s still a threat. It can mainly be used as a whiff punisher against moves with longer duration like a roundhouse from Gouki or a step kick from Ken. You can also do a psychic roundhouse to stuff your opponent if you were close and you really feel like they were going to hit a button. It’s great when you have your opponent cornered as it can stuff a jump in very early and make them think twice before taking to the air to escape. It’s also great for punishing FA attempts.
Stand forward - This is the new low fierce and should be one of your main footsie tools. This move stuffs so much shit for free and it’s just hard for alot of pokes to actually hit Sagat when he does this move. Only a few pokes can reliably strike Sagat out of this like Dictator’s stand roundhouse/forward or Cammy’s stand roundhouse or low fierce. But most other pokes in this game just get eaten alive. Boxer’s sweep, Chun’s sweep, Rose’s stand roundhouse/forward and her low strong, Fei’s low fierce, etc. It will even beat Claw’s low strong while he STILL has his Claw on. Insanity. If you get a counter hit you can link into a TU for good damage or if you aren’t close enough for that you can link into Stand short xx LTS. That’s a one frame link, but definitely worth mastering to maximize your damage potential. This hits on frame 9. It’s +3 on hit and 0 on block. It sets up for TK spacing really well and generally gives you quite a bit of breathing room.
Low jab - Main close range poke. Cancel into TS for pressure if you want. Keep in mind low jab to TS isn’t tight. There is a small gap where an opponent can mash out a dp move so be aware of this and don’t always cancel into a TS after a blocked low jab. Hits on frame 3 and is safe on block making it good for when your opponent is past the optimal spacing for stand
forward/short.
Low short - A little slow at frame 5, but recovers fast so it’s good for whiffing in someone’s zone to draw out a reaction. This also has decent priority for some reason and can even stuff shoto low forward pretty consistently. +3 on block as well so that’s great.
Low roundhouse - Sagat’s sweep. Pretty average actually, but it has one good use. Vs characters with good standing pokes like Dictator a sweep can be used to counter poke them when they try to attack. After you have netted a knockdown momentum is yours and then you can safe jump, OS them on wake-up, frame trap, cross-up etc. This move hits on frame 8.
Low fierce - This isn’t CvS2 unfortunately, but this move is still solid. It’s similar to stand forward in that it’s good for stuffing things, but Stand forward is generally a bit better at it plus it’s a little safer on whiff because it recovers 4 frames faster. But this move is 1 frame faster, hitting on frame 8 and gives 1 more frame of advantage on hit. The range is nice though and so is the block push back. This is 0 on block so it can’t be punished on block.
F+hp - Sagat’s overhead. This has very deceptive range and it’s quite good. A bit more then Sagat’s low jab actually. For some reason this move has extremely high priority and beats out alot of moves. So even if your opponent tries to poke you when they see this you will often times beat them out unless the poke was low to the ground. When blocked this gives you good block push back and sets up well for zoning or a TK. Use this when your opponent is sitting on block and they are a little close and you want to make them think twice about being really defensive.
Tiger Shot - Really fucking good. Ever seen Mago or Daigo play and sort of walk up a bit then throw out a seemingly random fireball? Sure you have. Why? Think about it. Safe on block, does chip, pushes the opponent back, and eats every poke for free. What’s not to love? TS makes opponents think twice before just walking into Sagat’s space and throwing out a poke or even whiffing a poke on purpose to bait something. TS eats whiffed pokes for dinner. Also Sagat leans back before launching the shot which helps him avoid pokes. For footsies Tiger Shots should be viewed as longer ranged pokes with slightly longer start-up time.
Tiger Knee - Alot of the time just the threat of a TK is enough to keep opponents in check. TK has good start-up time, alot of priority and eats alot of moves. It’s also armor breaking. If your opponent is hanging out around low short range you can do a seemingly random mk TK and if they hit a button they will more then likely eat the TK and get blown clear across the stage. More then likely though they will just block and now you have momentum. One thing that sucks is sometimes you end up hitting a stray limb of theirs on the way up and you don’t hit them on the way down then they get a free punish. So use this cautiously. Also Sagat’s legs are very vulnerable during the start-up of this move.
Focus attack - Easily one of the best FAs in the game. It has even more range then Sagat’s stand short. This move really helps Sagat make up for his weakness in his walk speed. Opponents may be fearful to throw anything out because a FA CH will lead to a crumple and free damage and then they will be on the ground as well. This move is great for dealing with the pokes that give Sagat more trouble and that are tougher to stuff. So vs chars like Dic you may find yourself using FA a bit more.
So we can see that Sagat has some great tools for every situation when dealing with footsies. He can push people out, try to bait them, counter poke, or whiff punish. He has all the tools to do this. But he still does have 2 weaknesses that must be looked over.
His slow walk speed.
His best pokes are standing pokes, making his legs vulnerable to low pokes and especially sweeps.
Masking these weaknesses and making up for them takes skill but it is doable. To make up for walk speed it’s just a matter of knowing your spacing and your ranges on your normals really well so that you know what to poke with and when. You also need to become comfortable with counter poking since your opponent will try to aggressively use their superior walk speed to dance in and out of your zone to try to get you to commit to something so they can capitalize. This just means you need to be ok with being on the defensive most of the time in regards to footsies and relying more on your range during footsies and not on mobility.
The second weakness is alleviated with more usage of FA and limiting the amount of time you actually spend standing. Try to only stand when you are adjusting your spacing or when you are poking. FA is good because it makes your opponent think twice before throwing out a sweep to catch your legs. If you absorb the hit you can dash and attempt a grab or release the FA and get a hit. If it was lvl 2 you can dash in for a combo. If you showed your FA and they didn’t take the bait, just backdash and you will be safe the majority of the time.
Basic tactics/tips
Try whiffing some stand jabs in your opponents face then doing a stand forward. If they hit a button, then more then likely you will stuff them. If it was a CH try for a CH combo. If they blocked then you will have some good space to work with and you can try for some TK pressure or zone. If you want even more space you can jump back. Replace stand forward with FA if you think your opponent will sweep and adjust your options after that accordingly.
If you have an opponent that likes to dance in and out of your range and you have meter try throwing out an Ex TK. It’s fast and very safe. If they tried something you will more then likely blow through them. If they blocked, you are safe. If they blocked crouching then you have frame advantage and can continue pressure. You can do the same thing with Ex tiger shot and it will be safer but you have less offensive options then you would have off a blocked Ex TK.
If you want to get your opponent to turtle up try to feel them out and go for CH stand froward or stand short xx LTS. Even if they don’t CH, eating one or two will make your opponent want to block and then momentum is yours.
Master whiff punishing certain normals. Things like whiffed shoto low forward should be punished every time with stand short.
If your opponent is sitting on crouch block after eating a bit of damage you can get a little bold. Try something like dash throw or dash low short pressure. Risky, yes but if the opportunity is there sometimes you must take it.
Baiting your opponent into jumping at you takes alot of skill and patience. There are some basic things you can do. You have to make it seem like your defense is impenetrable. Punish whiffed pokes and keep your opponent out with stand forward/short. Don’t constantly attack because you need to be able to react to anything random your opponent does. Sit on block for a bit then poke and mix in tiger shots to shut down their own pokes. Sooner or later they will risk the jump in hoping to catch you as you throw out a LTS or during the recovery of a poke. Shut down their hopes with an AA fierce TU.
The backbone of your footsie game is stand short, stand forward, Low Tiger Shot, low jab and FA. As you get better you will add more stuff to your repertoire but these 5 moves should be the core of your footsie game and they are generally your most reliable as well as universally useful pokes in every match.
When you are sitting on 2 bars you can get a little stupid if you want. Try a random kara TU. Even if it’s blocked you are safe thanks to FADC. This random factor can be very scary for your opponent to deal with, so when you have 2 bars don’t be surprised if you notice your opponent turtling a bit more during footsies.
Smart opponents know that crouching increases your hitbox size. So many times opponents may try to stand just outside your range. Try mixing in some low step kicks to throw them off their game. If it hits you can link combo into low jab xx TU/TS depending on the spacing. Low step kick is also safe on block leaving Sagat at -1.
That’s all I can think of for now, although I think I covered everything I wanted to. If anyone wants me to get character specific then let me know. Hope this info helps you level up.
Fuck yeah! I think I leveled up just reading this. In so many match-ups I get eaten alive at mid-range, but I guess you already knew that. I never realized how useful his FA was, as far as range and defending his legs. Good shit, sir.
When you get time, if you don’t mind, I would love to see some character specific strategy. However, I think the info in that post may remedy my woes. For now, I gotta let all this soak in. Good shit, indeed.