Taking a cue from music games, a real help to beginners in SFIV Dash

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter IV
41

Sorry Infil, the chess analogy was from a statement that banana made. It has little to do with the original post. But yeah bad habits can be learned from the only normals game but so are seriously bad habits are learned with fireballs. This addition wasn’t ever going to eliminate bad habits. Once again it is just to offer another option of learning, that is all. 20 years ago I started play SF1 and there were a million bad habits I had to get rid of. Perhaps that is a process all players have to go through.

For instance, look at wake up SRK’s. To stop attacks upon standing up we all wanted to learn wake up DP’s or Thrust Kicks or whatever reversal. At the intermediate game this reversal is huge, but in the high levels it is a pretty stupid thing to do. So eventually I had to learn that the really hard to do reversal wakeups weren’t the best idea and had to stop doing them or eat a big combo. That is a step almost every player needs to go through I think.

I dunno, I’m dizzy from responding so much so I am probably rambling at this point.

42

the chess analogy was about comparing the two games as a whole…but wutever thats blown way out of proportion…overall i dont think it would be too much trouble to make a series of in game tutorials explaining the deeper mechanics of the game…dident HD remix include sumthing like that? even so i still dont think the game needs it at all…can ther be no mystery and exploration into games anymore? do we need a dummys guide to every single game to hold our hand through it?

43

No doubt. You made excellent points here and i agree with you. Even a close friend of mine who claims to be great at SF player still falls for very basic predictable traps. My other friends try to tell me “hey man your gonna chase him away from SF” I simply say he’s gotta learn. There is no excuse to keep falling for the same trap over and over again. Adapt or die type thinking here. He’s gotten much better since then but he’s still stuck in his old patterns and hasn’t quite grasped how to really play. Funny thing is last weak he played a bunch of dudes at a random party and beasted them all out of a bunch of pocket change lol.

So proud:china:

44

The Street Fighter II’: Special Champion Edition for the Genesis had the option to disable special moves. This idea was tried at least once by Capcom. That being said I can’t remember a time that I ever turned off a special move.

The “walking tutorial” idea seems like the best way to get the new crowd into the fight faster.

I appreciated the video tutorials included in the Capcom Classics Collection 2 edition of SSF2. Previous to watching the Honda ochio throw storing method video, I had no idea that was even possible, and I played the game for all the years since it first came out.

Really if a new player is not that into the game because he/she doesn’t know the moves, the title of the “Challenge Mode” alone does not inspire he/she to even explore that option. They don’t want a challenge if you have just beaten them senseless. What they want is help learning the moves, then basic tactics, then maybe down the road they’ll want to learn some long combo.

Very few new players are gonna be thinking, hey I should go online to watch hours and hours of match videos to see if I can learn something from how other people play. Some will, but most will just say “this game is no fun” like your little brother did when you beat him for the 20th time in a row.

45

I think you have a great idea Chun. I would rep you if I could.

Maybe I’ll come back in 50 posts =.=

46

You’re taking the Guitar Hero reference too literal. I don’t mean play mechanics but more an instant gratification for a beginner in SF like you get as a beginner in GH. That’s all. Pick up a guitar, play through a song feel happy. Pick up a stick or controller, win a fight online with another beginner, feel happy. Get even more gratification when you choose to move up to other levels. Win a match on expert utulizing all of your strategies… playing a crazy hard song on expert getting 100%. It’s an achievement and rewards thing that I bring up Guitar Hero as a model.

I got into specifics to demonstrate the benefits of getting normal or special move foundations if the player chose.

Also, when you we were learning with the roll of quarters, fighting games we in the biggest of their hey day. Nowadays we are trying to keep the community flourishing so more games are made. I am looking to keep new players coming and not getting scared off when they get obliterated for trying to play online.

I am sure we have all done it, beaten someone so badly that during the fight it really didn’t look like they had a chance to even hit you. We have all beaten someone in less than 15 seconds each round and you knew that when you got back to the challenge screen they were probably leaving and you didn’t blame them.

Now I don’t mean the people who really want to learn and will take their beatings and keep coming for more. I mean the casual guy who just spent more time in the air juggled or on the ground on his back than staging an attack. That player might not come back or think to buy the next game. Beit providing different modes of play with limited moves, or more indepth tutorials or Rampage’s idea of dial a combo via visual prompts on screen like Guitar Hero. Whatever helps keep the new players coming and keeps SFV or DS4 or A4 on the possible horizon.

47

1992, no SF didn’t need its players to be spoon fed because millions of people everywhere were playing it every second they could at the arcade, SNES or Genesis. The demand for SF and other fighting games was retarded and you were going to see more produced.

Fighting games are not at the level again. Not even remotely close. So yeah we have to help along newer players so they stay and buy more versions of the games and thus insight Capcom to make SFV or IV Dash or A4 or MvC3 or DS4 or even a new Jo Jo’s. Whatever.

Also, there is no way that enough tutorials would ever be made to encompass every facet of the game. There is too much to explain with “training your oponents” or “lock down combos” vs “set up combos” or etc, etc… There would still be plenty to learn once beyond the foundations. But if we can somehow get new players up and running faster and competing at a level where they are getting returns on their training faster then the community is stronger for it and we have more of a chance of more fighters made.

I’m glad you think SFIV is just fine the way it is as far as learning curve goes. There’s a guy who rented it at blockbuster who got the shit kicked out of him on his 360 dpad thinking he wasted his $9 rental money on a game he will probable never bother to play again because everything he feels has to learn to compete isn’t worth it. Maybe, just maybe if he got to play at a beginner level, where is it pretty tough to get pummelled that quickly without specials or supers, he might think he can learn from what just happened to him.

48

I think better AI would propogate learning as well. Because SF3 was basically the death of arcade fighting games I was reduced to playing the CPU when I moved from NYC. It was disgusting how bad my game got from that. I went from placing pretty high in tournaments back east to losing to the siliest tactics at a house party years later because I was so used to playing only the CPU.

I agree, SFIV’s AI is pre-grammed reactions to your moves with the occasional big move whiff. Ever try wrekka kens against the computer? Normally it could be good set ups or lock down. Yeah it’s amazing that the CPU was johnny on the spot with that FA command. People don’t play like that.

I did at first on the SNES but only because I was so used to puting the code in (YBXADULR) and I did when I go the new cart. In the future I did it just to see if I could beat the computer on the hardest setting without the specials. I was able to with Chun, Sim, Gief, Ryu and Ken.

To this day I think that foundation game with normals still helps me. I don’t think enough emphasis is put on these moves within the games training. With videos, in game tutorials or the skills level modes, I was just trying to instill a system to help develop that same foundation.

LOL, thanks :tup:

49

I think chun managed to uncover a real issue, and I believe this is the correct solution.

however, I just don’t see how it’d practically happen. I can’t think of a single fighting game franchise that have an even remotely “good” AI. By “good”, I don’t mean AIs that can beat people, I mean AI being able to imitate people.

I have some background in AI concepts, and I’ve often tried to think of a better approach to coding FG AIs. At the end, I always end up feeling that a learning Expert System is the ideal solution. The problem is that it’s expensive to implement, and I honestly can’t imagine any game studio would justify the cost with a profitable business reason.

the closest thing I’ve seen was Tekken 5’s ghost data system. But it could only be custom tailored by one player, and it was not widely re-distributable. If a fighting game had a system to periodically collect “ghosts”, and redistribute the consolidation as optional patches, THEN we’d be talking.

50

a little personal, applicable noob experience

Perhaps I can give a useful, first-hand account of what Chunbelievable is talking about. I’ve played Chunbelievable at least 3-4 times on xbox live and have gotten utterly crushed minus maybe one game of me mixing up air fireballs, pokes, and landing a demon (my typical game). He could go around picking pretty much any character playing against my akuma and toy around with shorts, jabs, throws, and crossups 100% of the time. It was frustrating and I’m pretty sure after each session either I was kicked or left after five to ten games (maybe as low as two games a few times).

So, how new am I? I’m new to SF4. I bought an HDTV & XBOX & TE Stick just to play SF4 (80% of the reasoning for the purchase). I’m not new in the sense that yes, as a little guy I played SSF2T on NES, SFA3 on PS, and some Third Strike (all with d-pads on which I’m better than I am now- I think).

I like chunbelievable’s idea because it’s extremely difficult to pick up all the subtleties of this game without being overwhelmed during a match. It’s like you HAVE to find a practice partner (good luck finding one on LIVE if you don’t have one in real life) and just keep it down to normals and throws and begin to understand the dynamics. During a real match, ESPECIALLY when I’m engaged in a string/crossup/in-close fighting spree, I break down hardcore. It’s utterly discouraging to feel so lost without a strategy or clear idea as to how to improve. The vast majority of the time I do try and stick it out against a good player and learn. I do make improvements, but most of the time they realize they don’t even need to do FADC’s into ultra or try for links - they wind up doing normals, throws, tons of shorts/jabs and usually taunts.

It does feel like sink or swim… and after about ~3 months+ of playing nearly everyday… I’m still trash. I’m researching, I’m on these forums, I am and have been looking at videos of double-tapping, I CAN plink, and I CAN pull off useful combos, I just CANNOT get the basics of reacting fast enough to continue a combo when you connect. Or teching throws like the pros (or at all, even when you see them walk towards you after you block a far jump-in). Or seeing which way I need to block 90% of the time for an incoming crossup. OR… the list goes on.

I’m into the flashy stuff. I can do the combos and pull’em off in-game ~50% of the time. I have the knowledge (from resources here+youtube). What I don’t have is the practice to put this stuff into use because the CPU is, like Dime_x said, garbage and it’s hard as hell to get anywhere online. I think the implementation is off too, but anything would be an improvement over SF4’s online system on xbox live. Maybe a mentor/practice partner or group system. A setting to take away all specials/supers/ultras. Maybe some bonuses to encourage the use of these features, whatever. This turned into me venting more than feedback about Chunbelievable’s idea, but I’ll risk it. :xeye:

51

It’s not a terrible suggestion, and in fact it might work if SF games didn’t rely on special moves as much as they did.

It’s certainly a better suggestion than Scissors asking for Rock to be nerfed.

52

I usually just do this by myself. :confused:

When I play my not-very-good friends I just limit myself to normals.

And when I play my astoundingly bad friends I limit myself to crouching roundhouse and jab. It still usually ends up 70/30. :rofl:

53

this is pretty off topic but your description of joe schmoe blockbuster renter reely reminds me of this “09er” bullshit …you basicly described most older members idea of an 09er right ther!..and yet if one of those ppl makes a post that you (maybe not you specificly) consider stupid or asks for help they get shit on big time! maybe the problem isent so much the game itself but the online gaming comunity these days being such fucking assholes to “noobs”. i had older dudes who where way better than me in the arcade, totally friendly and willing to help me learn when i first played the game…now you got all the vets acting like grade school bullys towards the new players…maybe if more ppl actually had your attitude towards newcomers to the franchise then the fighting game comunity actually would become as popular as it once was

54

Thanks for sharing the perspective of a newer player to SFIV. Your situation is the exact predicament I was looking to aid. Also, I honestly don’t remember seeing your tag as an opponent which is not to say that we didn’t fight, but more I hope whatever play style I was using wasn’t too frustrating. I get a little pissed tracking down Akuma’s sometimes. And I almost never kick players unless they do something to really piss me off (ie taunt me then lose to me in the same fight). If you ever want sessions of sparring games I am down, just send an invite.

To continue on topic, people seem to be really focusing on the beginner level and not thinking that most people playing these modes will probably be bored with beginner level almost immediately and quickly gravitate to medium or hard. Keep in mind medium level is basically SF2 with tech’s. A good SF2 foundation can certainly help people. Hard level doesn’t have Ultra’s or FA’s. That’s just a little less to worry about while you are still working your way to expert.

No I am not saying taking Ultra’s and FA’s are a small thing but let’s take the Ryu and Chun Li match up for instance. Before Chun has her ultra charged, Ryu can play a distance game with fireballs. The instance Chun Li get her ultra charged Ryu has to be a lot smarter about just chucking fireballs out there. In hard mode the Ryu learning Ryu player can still develop his distance game and stick to it the whole fight and not so much worry about half of his life and almost all of his lead is gone in one move. On the flip side, if the Chun Li player was trying to level up in hard mode, that person would have to learn how to track down distance Ryu’s.

Man I have a lot to say about this. Oh well, it’s good just to write about Street Fighter again.

55

That’s the idea here Banana, to help the newer players. I was never setting to change the game. As for the thing 09. It happens every single year this site has been open. I have been around since I think the beginning but I was under a different tag back when I first started. Every year there has always been mention of the latest years joining members. Almost like the last year’s member were dying for January 1st to start ragging on the new year.

But there are a good amount of vets who are here to help keep the community going. There is an infinite amount of help around here. And many of them want to help newer players flourish so more will buy the game and more games will be made, that is the simple model we are looking for.

I also think I should mention that you didn’t seem to like my OP and you shit on it pretty hard. Which is fine, I am a big boy and can handle it and I was expecting trolls and flames. But if that behavior bothers you, which it seems to a little, then perhaps you shouldn’t do it yourself.

56

chun’s got a decent idea, but I don’t think his implementation is right. Mainly, I don’t think it would perform it’s intended purpose (helping players get better), plus I don’t think the system as described (limiting move sets) would be used at all.

The way I see it, what we really want for !SFIV Dash (since it’s supposedly not going to be called that :wink: is to get more players to play the game and to stick with the game longer. To do that, we need two things:

  1. We want beginner/new players to get better at the game.
  2. We want players to feel a sense of gratification.

I was going to say stuff, but then I saw SlothHands here:

Well, I’m not sure about the last point since I don’t know how that works, but the rest is good. Kich is also spot on here:

All good stuff. I also agree with whoever suggested that the AI be trained to play more like humans. I also think having the ability to play ghosts of players is a great idea.

Overall, I think the system to look at here is Virtua Fighter 4 [Evo?]'s training mode. You could spend weeks in training, improving and having fun without ever actually playing another human being. That is what Capcom should be aiming for. The person who spends weeks having a blast in training may or may not compete with a player who spends equal time playing other people, but the guy in training mode should feel like he has a chance to compete, at least.

Because let’s face it, not everyone who plays !SFIV Dash is going to get substantially better at it, or even want to get substantially better at it, or they may want to but don’t have the time, but they still want to have fun and improve, on their own time and their own pace. People will keep playing fighters as long as they find them fun; not everyone plays a fighter mainly to compete in it. In fact, only a small percentage do.

57

Nice concept. I can definitely relate to the music game reference. Granted… said music games take away time I should be using to practice my SFIV… But that’s another story.

I don’t think the modes are really necessary. I think it’s more so about finding people who are at your level to play with. That way, you get the hang of the game. Then, you just move up from there as you want to advance. If you don’t want to advance, that’s fine. Then just keep playing with your group of people.

Using the music reference, I have a friend who only plays on medium. He has been doing so for several years now. Even though he complains about some songs being too easy (or bass being too easy in RB), he refuses to move on. If he is still getting gratification from the game at that level, then let him stay at that level… And look like a scrub while the rest of us are rocking out on expert.

58

Awesome, then beginner level could truly become Jab Fighter IV.

59

Another newbie here. Not only new to SFIV but actually new to fighting games. I had never played a Fighter before.

I don’t really mind Chun’s idea but it wouldn’t really solve the issue, I believe. What Capcom would need to implement is, as some already suggested, an actual tutorial mode, maybe coupled with the already existing trails challenges. I literally had to figure out everything by myself or look it up on the net. I had no idea how to tech knockdowns or throws, what the difference between linking and canceling is or how fadc works. The game doesn’t tell you any of that basic stuff. Of course you’ll figure it out eventually but I can very well see lots of people quit when they go online and get crushed without them even knowing what the hell happened.
For some reason SF just clicked with me and I stuck with it, even though I even had trouble unlocking all the characters in the beginning. But as far as total newcomers are concerned, I probably am an exception here; I myself know many people who just didn’t bother to invest lots and lots of time to finally be able to play on damn scrub-level. I think it’s pretty lame that Capcom just leaves beginners alone like that. It almost seems that they assume everyone will have played their other games anyway. I’d actually say a real and in-depth tutorial would be mandatory in a game like SFIV. The Veterans wouldn’t care and it would certainly help extend the audience beyond the usual fighting-game demographic.

Edit:
I also very much like the other idea that came up, adding a rhythm-game like thingie for the combos in trial mode. It certainly would’ve made things a lot easier for me.

60

Speaking specifically about online mode, I hope “SF4 II: The Quest for Sagat’s Missing Eye” has a filtering mechanism, like BlazBlue. Say what you want about that game, they really got the online part of it right.

I only played it a few times, but you could designate whether a room is for beginners or experts. Sure, SFIV has something like this in championship mode, but points don’t usually correlate to skill level, and the user doesn’t really have much control over whom he fights.

Implement something like this and you’ll have a lot fewer frustrated “noobs” (because they’ll be playing other beginners) and the “experts” will (possibly) get some higher quality games. (Of course, this depends on how honest the player is! Anyone can say they’re expert-level.)