Anyway 2) A lot of people just aren’t going to bother with the training program. They’re going to remain sores in veteran’s sides. and nothing can be done about it.
Yes OF COURSE a seasoned player would still kill beginners. That’s not the point. The idea is not to give beginners a better chance of beating the pros. It’s to provide a game environment that would be more condusive for a BEGINNER player to understand what happened.
As a beginner, having not played the game ever before. If Yeb came in a fucked me up with one of those sick as combos I wouldn’t know what the hell happened to me. I am not sure I can say I know what he does in his combos at teh level I am at now. But once I lost to him when he was only using normals I would at least be able to retain some of the stratgies easier.
And if Zangief’s standing strong causes you so many problems as a beginner non of your character’s standard moves can truly get around it, level up and try specials. Good more incentive to CHOOSE to be at medium level.
Undoubtedly, but I’m talking about general populace. Veterans are veterans, and a -lot- of emphasis in the SF community is placed on those who are held the highest and those who are the best, and that’s fine, but raising the general quality of play out of the playerbase would not only improve online play, but it would improve even things like these forums, far, FAR less people would be here “LAWL HOW DOES I DO DIS?” if the game told them how.
Granted, one could argue, “Well they should do the research” Well people are stupid. And lazy. Really lazy. You’d be surprised at how vehemently the average gamer would respond to doing extracurricular work towards bettering themselves at a game. I’m not talking about good gamers, people who take any game they play seriously and really milk each game for all it has, I mean the millions of people who play games but don’t realize how much information is out here on the internet or don’t bother doing it because they don’t feel a need to.
The trial modes went no further than forcing you to do a move or an extremely complex combo that’s only complex for the sake of complexity, with no real benefit behind doing it.
I think the things you’re looking for are already implemented in the system. It’s just a matter of refining them.
Extending the trial modes would certainly add content as well as continue to teach newcomers (and even veterans) straightfoward useful BnB combos as well as those super hard test-your-execution combos.
As for computer AI to play against and practice, that’s a different issue all on its own. Maybe another 5-10 years, there will be an AI that can simulate a good player rather than abuse the system with instant specials and whatnot.
Bringing the game down to a noob’s level would be detrimental to the community. You’re telling them that it’s ok to suck and rewriting rules for them (re: Smash). Check out S-Kill’s article “On Cheapness” http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=34747 if you havent already read it.
As for your comment on damage scaling, it’s quite necessary to include in the game. My personal opinion is that it should be toned up. There’s alot of easy broken combos in the game (re: Sagat). I’m surprised they let that shit through.
Kooper and Kich. I am definitely down with more comprehensive tutorials. I am all for em. Hell I think Rampage’s idea of a combo tutorial that worked like Guitar Hero would be awesome. I also awlays thought that set up and pin down combos are sorely missing from strategy guides and movies. I am just putting out an idea that might act as another learning aid to beginners.
Take it or leave this fuction, if I were to make a fighting game I might include this. SF has the one good model of game mechanics that would really allow for this to actually work a little. 3D fighters are all mostly normals and KOF, Blaze Blue and Guilty are really geared around specials. It is just a thought. At least my rep didn’t blow all up in the red… Yet.
If they really want to make Dash beginner friendly they would:
1.) Improve SF4’s challenge mode with explanations & visual examples of combo’s and mechanics. Show hit boxes & inputs too.
2.) Have in-game videos explaining how the game is played and it’s mechanics like this:
[media=youtube]d0cFs5mHQC4[/media]
3.) Use BlazBlue’s input buffers to make combos easier, and remove 1 frame links.
4.) Let people save replays or watch a replay of their match after a game so they can see their mistakes.
5.) Use mircrosoft’s trueskill rating, and Champion Edition ratings to sort out the player skills in different leagues.
ya great idea!.. ok and lets have a beginer mode for the game of chess as well! at the beginer level you can only use pawns…next level up when you master pawns you can use bishops AND pawns, nex level up you can use…NO! the game is fine the way it is! you think the game of chess would have lasted this long if sumbody implemented this dumb idea…i say chess cuz thats the closest thing i can compare street fighter to…any idiot can learn how the pieces move and play like a scrub…same with street fighter…any joe schmoe can learn a dragon punch, but it takes years of experience and dedication to become a good player. both games can be enjoyed by crapy players and masters alike!..lets leave the game the way it is…it has lasted this long for a reason…the recipe works…dont fuck with it
There’s insecure and low-life everywhere and that include street fighter IV .
When i completly destroy someone i don’t taunt them … I don’t either hit them when the round’s over.I most of the time , msg them and tell em what they did wrong.Hel some ppl were mad at me because i defeated them easily.My answer was …
-Shit happens to everyone , relax.
Hell i ended up having big discussion with some folk on PC and we end up practicing a lot.
Those low-life and insecure people seek ego boost online .So they get that i’m important feeling online .
Hell i was destroyed more than once and basicly each time i was destroyed by someone … I got msg like
YOU SUCK ROFL
STUPID SCRUBS HAHAHAHA
or OMG PWNED ROFL GO back to TETRIS HAHAHAHA .
No wonder a lot of newcomer quit.
No but do you imagine me telling someone in the arcade that i defeat easily … looking at him and screaming
HAHAHAHA YOU SUCK OMG SCRUUUUUUUUUUBS
I would certaintly look like a dumb ass low-life and not many ppl would find this funny.
But It’s internet and some of us can deal with this kind of behavior and we just ignore it and move on.But some ppl can’t .
it’s 1 vs 1 . So if you get beat … you simply get it more personnaly than let’s say counter-strike.
Awesome contribution. First thanks for describing checkers oh and by the way, it a fucking optional mode. And in case you haven’t been playing SF that long, there was a SNES code that had this beginner mode in it. So yeah, Capcom already did this to extent. And adding modes isn’t exactly changing the game genius, it adding shit to it. I didn’t say take out FADC’s or add parries. I suggested adding help new players. But super thanks for chiming in a soak up that red JR.
I entered this thread thinking it’s about playing Bemani games to help you with your timing on links and combos. <.<
And I’ll definitely give your idea a go since currently I’m living with my friends who dunno how to play SF4. Yesterday I made my friend lose so much that he’d rather go read his Finance textbook instead.
checkers?? JR?? :rolleyes:…i think my comparison to chess is pretty spot on! both these games (like alot of other games/sports that have stood the test of time) have alot in common! i never got help when i started playing…i just had my older brother beat my ass ten million times in a row till i was forced to not play so shitty! they have made this game noob friendly enuf…we dont need dumb new beginer modes to cater to the halo generation of gamers…the beginers just need to get better! mike tysons punch out dident have a fuckin beginer mode! i dident have a beginer mode to help me finish metroid… i just had to suck it up and get better! new modes and shit are fine and dandy but lets add a better lobby system or a better system of selecting music…if anything the game should just have an in depth tutorial to teach new players the finer points of the game
vegas represent
i don’t introducing a “level ranking system” because you’re basically secluding them. sf suppose to be a social event. if someone is at the beginner level then they obviously don’t care to learn and will never progress to the next level. not only will they waste the time of other competent players when they’re hogging up the system. ask yourself if you will youtube a button masher…of course not. nobody wants to see that. if ur good then ur good. if u suck then u will lose. its the person’s fault to figure out what he did wrong. for example you get jump-in alot. its you’re responsibility to work on nothing but jump-ins. slowly improve your game by addressing diff areas of the game little by little until it all comes together. everyone expects to get spoon fed while its ur job to learn from ur mistakes.
i just typed this on ps3 browser keyboard. clearly i have no life.
this is completely off topic and i apologize but it needs to be said. the problem with challenge mode is that it’s a challenge, it’s not a tutorial. there really isn’t a tutorial mode in SFIV. if any of you have played a sega fighting game, you know what a real tutorial mode is like. VF5 actually tries to help you understand how the game works and give you the knowledge to play decently. i wish capcom would do that with street fighter.
oh yea and alpha 3 was the king of having too many damn secret game modes.
Yeah. Honestly, a completely comprehensive tutorial mode explaining all the aspects of the game would likely stop a lot of the smarter players from raging.
And would likely stop players online from calling me a “sux cheater controll hacker” when I FA their HK jump-ins.
I agree with this…to a point. I believe it should be up to the player to figure why he/she sucks.
Chunbelievable…
Using Guitar Hero as an example is a bad idea IMO…it’a basically remember when to hit the right color button to a song. FG strategies are way different.
At this point, I believe that ANYONE can pick up Street Fighter 4 as it is and play. All the normals, specials, supers, Ultras available at the get go. It’s up to the player to take what is there and figure out their best style to play. One person’s ryu may not play like the other person’s. Back when I started to learn, there were no tutorial vids, training modes to help me. Just a roll of quarters, and better players. It was up to ME to figure out why I was losing, and how to learn from my mistakes…not the CPU.
Couple me with the group that thinks the OP has a useful idea, but his suggested implementation won’t really accomplish this goal.
For one thing, in certain SF matchups, the only way to counter certain normals is with a given character’s specials. It’s pretty difficult to practically compartmentalize the game like this and expect players to actually properly learn. If you want to teach them normals, that’s fine, but you have to do it in the context of the whole game. If you just purely isolate the normals, it actually won’t do much when they graduate to the next level, because all they were taught at the “easier” level was actually misleading. All you’re really doing is wasting their time and, at the same time, starting them on some bad habits!
The game also doesn’t have the same breakdown as music games. If two beginners were to play your so-called “expert mode” in SF (that is, the game we’re currently playing in SF4), they’d do just fine, because the finer points of the game are hidden from them and they still just spam buttons. If you were to throw a beginner on expert level in a music game, they’d die instantly because they are required to know everything about the game to succeed.
The proper approach, as others have said, is a carefully narrated sequence of video and interactive tutorials in-game, which teach people about the finer aspects of SF and why their strategy of spamming shoryukens and jumping all day is not going to win. These tutorials will be optional (just like your proposed modes), and will go a lot further towards improving a scrubby player than simply artificially limiting their toolset (while normals are important, some characters are pretty garbage without their specials… what are you teaching them when they pick said character?). They can learn the game in pieces using the tutorials, but this type of segmentation (basics, intermediate techniques, advanced combos) is a much better way to break the game up than by normals, specials, supers, ultras.
Also, it sucks to think about it this way, but while we’re being so pragmatic, such a mode would take a loooong time for Capcom to develop, and would have to take priority over other aspects of the game that, frankly, are much more important. This type of mode is really just a pipe dream for that reason. :sad: However, fortunately with the advent of Youtube, the fans can create these types of videos themselves! I’ve always been interested in getting involved with a project like this, but I have no real video editing experience. And flashy video editing is mandatory in a project like this.
Dude if someone chooses to start at the beginner level I can’t imagine them never wanting to throw a fireball. This is just an opportunity to learn at a different pace other than sink or swim.
I am also not against more in depth tutorials. Bring em on. I don’t see a problem of implimenting other ways of learning.
Oh yeah, banana, chess with just pawns is basically checkers, a game still in its own right. Not a super complex one but still a game. The idea is to let players have the OPTION to start with checkers before diving is to highest level of chess with Bobby Fisher or into a match with Daigo. If they want to try and learn at that pace awesome for them. If they want a little easier route this is an added option.
But hey let’s debate this even further. Pawns have one way of attack, no other priorities or distance of attack. Every single normal in SF has it’s own characteristics and properties, each move is more than a pawn.
SFIV Trials have different circumstances in them where moves are turned off. I am not a coder but it would seem to be at this point a simple switch.
Ultimately I am sensing the forums isn’t digging the idea. Oh well throwing it out there.
Oh and Infil. If you want to make videos don’t let the lack of super flashy video system stop you. You got an idea, make it. I don’t have control of what goes into dash, I can only suggest it.
Well, no, what I meant was a full-on set of tutorial videos would take a long time to make (either by Capcom or by a fan). Indeed, the mode you’re suggesting would be fairly easy to implement.
As for your checkers/chess analogy, I don’t think it’s a very good one unfortunately. It basically comes down to depth-first search vs. breadth-first search (if you’re a computer person, you’ll know about these terms). Instead of limiting scope and going super deep down into one mode, as I believe limiting a moveset to just normals would do, I’d rather they give you the full moveset, but instead slowly introduce different gameplay elements and strategies. You want to start broad but not deep, as opposed to deep but not broad. Doing it the latter way is going to cause a bunch of bad habits and force people to “unlearn” stuff they once thought was a good idea, instead of slowly build up useful ideas in order of difficulty.
chuns got a great idea here… but i think its mentioned implementation is off… it would go the route of damage handicaps… they are in the game but no one uses them…people dont like being talked down to… after all this is a competitive fighter… if you beat someone that has a handicap on, it amounts to nothing.
i think the better solution is one thats been in effect for as long as the games have been around:
THE A.I.
this SERIOUSLY needs to be revamped… i dont even bother playing against it cause it will HURT your game in the end, even if you can rape the computer…
back on dreamcast there was an “online” mode for sfa3 that had dan sim ryu and someone else as ai bots that you could play… these bots had a high ass ai but it wasnt the cheesy “reactive” ai, or the you hit them a million times and they hot you twice and you die ai…
it was actually a footsies based ai and it actually baited stuff like doing throw baits, it walked back and forth like a human player… it stuck out moves that wiffed and could be punished… it didnt ALWAYS jump over fireballs etc. didnt do dumb shit like wiff 3 fierce srk’s, dan actually only used standing medium kick to zone… he would walk back and forth and zone the shit out of you with that move, the computer actually did mixups and lo and bhold would fall for mixups as well (not much though, but it still happened) all of the characters that i mentioned also had a plethora of block strings that they used as well…
this made me realize that it IS possible to teach the computer how to play "more human"
i thought it was impossible, but it isnt, its just that fighting game companies think that it is a waste of time… they are all idiots.
fixing the ai to better mimic certain levels of human play is how it should go imho… they’ve already proven that they can do it on the dc… if they can do it on there its for damn sure possible to do on this gens consoles.
-dime