Grab range, mix-ups are generally safer, pokes are outstanding, lariat, running grab, green hand, he can grab from a crouching position. All of this also making it easier for him to get in. He all around doesn’t have as many really poor match-ups like Hawk does but massacres the same characters as Hawk in ST.
Also if you don’t get in with Gief, he has other things( cr.rh poke that hurts and has great priority) that he can use to win a match.
There’s more to this from a character specific standpoint also, but I’m not gonna type all of that out right now :tup:
First of all, are we talking N.Hawk, or O.Hawk. I believe N.Hawk is really low in ST tiers, while O.Hawk is Btier. If were talking about N.Hawk then this is why.
Gief has moves that can help him move on the ground and not get Anti-Aired every attempt you make jumping in. He has moves that can absorb FBs, advance and go into 360. He just has better normals too.
I do believe that O.Hawk is better than Gief just due to his normals being a lot more better, and better 360 range.
And am I the only person in the world who thinks he got worse in STHD? (From O.Hawk)
I’m pretty sure O.Hawk and N.Hawk has the exact same Typhoon range.
Most serious Hawk players are aware of R.Hawk’s inferiority, due to his new whiff animation and his Condor Dive doesn’t knockdown which means the Guile match-up is rather silly.
Sorry, I totally forgot about this thread, hopefully you read this.
O.Hawk has like 3-4 pixel more range on jab typhoon iirc, but I know there’s a difference (Please, if someone knows the exact amount please share!)
Also, with N.Hawk a silly gimmick I’ve been messing with is whiff st.mp (anti air version, where you’re too close to do the thrust poke, but too far for the AA version to hit) into 720. Also works for O.Hawk into 360, it’s effective on GGPO, but can’t say much for offline.
O.Hawk having better Jab Typhoon range is all new to me, on T.Akiba’s page he doesn’t differentiate between O. and N.Hawk, either they’ve got the same range or he messed up.
St.Strong whiff into SUPER is something I’ve mostly gotten off accidently, it’s pretty neat if one can find a real use for it, instead of random shenanigans.
I still love ST, so I always check if something happened in the OG ST thread before anything else.
O.Hawk and N.Hawk have the same range on jab typhoon, only the hit boxes are different with their normals/Special moves.
The only reason to explain Capcom changing Hawk from SSF2 to ST, is the popular Gamest magazine T.Hawk is #1 in SSF2 joke that many people took seriously !
But I think the changes were because the super did huge damage.
I don’t think people played SSF2 long enough to know the game better and know tiers, going from HF to SSF2 was a major step back it was SLOW.
6 months later Super Turbo was out in Japan, and everybody forgot about SSF2.
The only clear thing about SSF2 is that Sagat and Guile dominated the game, by today’s knowledge of game play mechanics and strategy I personally think T.Hawk is somewhere middle tier in SSF2.
Do you have proof? Because whenever I go back and forth with Ohawk and Nhawk I can’t do the same ticks with Nhawk the same range with Ohawk, unless hit boxes have something to do with that.
Okay, I’ve been messing around with some T.Hawk stuff lately. On shotos (only chars I’ve tested this on, I’m sure you can do this on more) you can set up a very ambiguous crossup with jumping down mp. If you space it correctly, you can have it where it looks like it hits the top of their head, but on the pixel-tight difference with spacing you can land on either side. Even if you don’ know where you’ll land, 360 motion doesn’t change either direction so it still benefits you! I haven’t tested with N.Hawk with this crossup. The Best setup for this cross up is off of a 2nd hit sweep, or a dp. I still need to test more.
I’d say Gief and N.Hawk are pretty even in what they can do, its more about preference. Anyone ever see that video where Lieut Dan’s N.Hawk was wailing on Jodim’s Gief?
Just picked up O. Hawk.
It is ridiculously frustrating trying to 360.
I go to practice mode and try, yet i’m still at a 25% completion rate.
My jump in then jab, low jab, 360 % is prolly 5%. This is prolly why so many give up on Hawk…
Granted, i am on a PS2 Chun-Li fightpad. Its like holding a can of Ravioli.
That shouldn’t matter though right?
I’m gonna go crazy.
How much practice did it take you to be proficient with Hawk?
I’m no newbie either. Most of you see me on GGPO everynight.
You just need to be quick. Try standing jab or just jumping jab into command throw and then start doing two and three hit ticks into throw once you get the hang of that. With T.Hawk you need to tick, then delay a slight bit, perform the joystick rotation, then hit or release any punch on the first frame that your opponent comes out of hit or block stun. It sounds much harder than it is.
This is ST so you can’t expect to be proficient in any character after playing for a few days. If you were to just pick up Dictator do you think you’d be able to land J.Rh, S.Sh, S.Sh, S.Sh, S.Rh with more than 5% consistency?
T.Hawk’s command throw has one active grab frame, it works like a normal throw, so the timing from a tick is that you cannot perform the command throw early like Zangief and then let your opponent come out of stun. You must throw only after your opponent has recovered from stun.
What do your failed command throw look attempts like? Is nothing coming out? Is a normal attack coming out? Are you jumping? What are your exact commands that you are inputting?
Do like I did on SSF2 for SNES. Practice doing 360s with Zangief first. I generally roll the pad either :l:,:db:,:d:,:df:,:r:,:uf:,:u: or :r:,:df:,:d:,:db:,:l:,:ub:,:u:. Once you get those motions down for Zangief, switching to Hawk shouldn’t be a problem. I can’t say that I ever had a problem between the two, myself, so I know it’s definitely all about practice.
Try starting your inputs in an upward direction and ending them in either a sideways or downward direction. This way if you are late with your joystick command you’ll at least be grounded if you fail to the command throw attempt.
With Hawk, if I know my opponent cannot reverse (such as a standing Guile or Dictator without Super meter), I usually do 270 and end the motion in the forward direction and press and release all three buttons for a total of six chances. Against an opponent who has a potential for a reversal I end my motion in downback and only release the three punch buttons for option select. You should dig through the T.Hawk wiki and see if you have any questions after that. Sirlin’s [media=youtube]t8dD3K2_Pz4&#t=3m15s"[/media]l from CCC covers T.Hawk’s negative edge option select quite nicely.
Another way to get used to throwing with Hawk is to just jump at your opponent in training mode and buffer the command from the air and throw as you land. Just empty jump at your opponent and spin the joystick in the air and then press and release the punch buttons once you land next to your opponent. Get the hang of that and then move on to one hit ticks and then move on to two or three hit tick throws.
No. This is a common misconception with Hawk. Both N.Hawk and O.Hawk have a three frame jump animation before they are registered as off the ground by the game engine. So if you are doing a command throw from a standing neutral position, meaning you do not tick or jump into the command throw, you would walk up to your opponent and spin the joystick from forward to up in a 270 motion. So forward, to down, to back, to up, in a clockwise fashion.
From the time you hit up on the joystick you have three frames to input or release a punch button to get a command throw off. If you are within range and quick enough and your opponent is in a throwable state then you will throw them. If you are out of range, too slow, or your opponent for some reason is in an unthrowable state, you’ll vertical jump into the air. And if you just released the buttons you’ll empty jump straight up, if you pressed the buttons you’ll get a punch of varying strength in the air depending on what punch you hit at the time of the jump.
During a tick throw you have a larger window to input the command throw and you don’t need to worry about jumping all over the place.
How can the T.Hawk match difficulty level for Honda be 3.5/10 and Blanka be 2/10?
T.Hawk execution wise is probably the hardest character to achieve high level play with in ST. In order to effectively space yourself correctly, constantly hit-confirm, safe-jump, and ensure that your punch buttons are held down during ticks to prepare yourself for negative edge, it takes tremendous focus and concentration.
Not only that but Honda is an incredibly difficult match for Hawk (you need to furiously mash crouching jab to stuff headbutts). And Blanka can cleanly duck under jumping jabs, a staple tick for Hawk, meaning you have to mentally break yourself from using jumping jab at any point during the match (same against Dictator). You’ll even see the best Hawk players using jumping jab against Blanka and Dictator before realizing their mistake and having to adjust on the fly.
Having to constantly negative edge throws is no easy task, you even see top level Hawk players occasionally perform that execution mistake, where they press down the punches during a command throw attempt and eat a reversal. I would definitely make those match difficulty ratings a bit higher across the board.
Some tricks to also note is that T.Hawk’s roundhouse grab will allow for a jumping cross-up on both Ken and Ryu from the 1P and 2P sides and on Blanka from the 1P side only. So with N.Hawk you grab Ken or [media=youtube]mZA76Go3O3Y&#t=1m47s"[/media], then do a diagonal jump towards them and his medium kick, the jumping attack will hit behind them as a cross-up (and it’s safe also except for Ken’s fierce dragon punch). With O.Hawk you can do the same but instead of a jumping diagonal forward (medium kick) you can do the splash (jumping diagonal down+fierce) for some real damage potential.
Also you should tag your video links with timestamps. So if you are linking to a combo video where the combo in question occurs at the two minute mark then link the video that way if it is from YouTube.
I used the Sagat page as a template and forgot to change the matchup numbers.
Those numbers are wrong, I have now fixed the page to the correct numbers.
It’s a measure of the ability to win the matchup, not the rigor required to play.
I am still debating what is the most inutiutive way to present that win/loss info.
Great info!
I will add it.
I like time stamps/embeds/etc., but am trying to get as much raw SF content up and will have to get to that at a later time.
The way it’s done now is cumbersome for the user, but it’s much quicker for me.
Also, it is much more resilient to tag changes by youtube. (which already screwed up a Gen post I did that used timestamps: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=190503; the posts tags work again now, but were screwed up for a brief time a while back)
