T. Hawk Thread.

It takes 6 DPs for Hawk to kill Cammy and 8 Thrust Kicks for Cammy to charge super to full. So, unless your super bar is nearly empty or you’ve taken damage when you get knocked down, you should be able to take some hits and get out.

Also, whether it’s good gameplay isn’t really relevant. ST is ST. It isn’t changing. Don’t play ST if you don’t like ST. (I don’t, but I still want to know how everything works.) I’m sure HDR has some unescapable traps, too, that people just haven’t realized yet. Honda OS throw/Headbutt seems like a good candidate.

Haven’t people told you already? If you’re playing cammy, you have an option which is super, AND ONLY IF you are knocked down in the corner and your opponent does that difficult loop perfectly. Why you keep coming back with this question?

There is no simple get out of jail card if that’s what you’re asking. That’s what HDR added for dictator because otherwise people would panic.

100% of real world situation, people win or lost a round based on mistakes. You’re not playing the computer and your opponent cannot perform this loop 100% however godlike he is.

If you have any experience in that situation, you should already know that mashing counter throw (when he’s in your throw range) or DP (if he’s not) in case your opponent messes up is not a bad strategy at all.

Though I don’t necessarily agree with Milo’s stance of HDR over ST (People need to be realistic here and realize that both games have their pros and cons), I have to agree with Milo here on the poor game design issue with T-Hawk.

He’s very, VERY difficult to play and master but he’s also one of the most, if not the most one dimensional character in the game.

The trap a lot of hardcore players fall into when they think about game design is that they only look at it from the hardcore level. Even professional game designers often have this fault as well. T-Hawk is one of the things I like about HDR. Yes, he is dumbed down from an execution perspective and his potential is not nearly what it is in ST but from a design perspective, he is much better. He’s easier to use at a high level and you have to use a wider range of tactics to win with him. The problem with him in HDR is that, unfortunately he wasn’t given enough buffs to offset the loss of the option select loop, knockdown dive, etc.

But considering all these design issues were unintentional, you can’t fault the game and the designers for that. In my opinion, ST is the most amazing of fighting games due to it’s longevity, popularity and how well the game has continued to evolve over two decades as players keep evolving their gameplay. But players should not ignore the flaws in the game, either because it’s part of their ST vs HDR stance or because they have unconditional love for the game, etc.

Not this ignorance again…James Chen and I just debunked this myth on the HDR forum. Hawk plays every match differently. You have to work differently to get it on every character. It’s not like every match is the same. You have to know how to dive against each opponent and when diving is safe and unsafe (whereas in HDR the dive is literally one-dimensional in that it is safe against the entire cast). In ST you have to take a different approach and learn every match by itself. Saying Hawk is one-dimensional because of the throw loop is equally as ignorant as saying Ryu is only fireball spamming and he spams fireballs the exact same way in every match. There isn’t one specific throw loop that works on everyone, something I just outlined above that you must have chosen not to read. You must mix and match, you need variety, you can’t play every match the same. O.Hawk has some of the best normals in the game and a great Touch of Death setup off of his splash. You can win with footsies with O.Hawk or with huge damage combos. N.Hawk also has a huge damage Super that we’ve seen completely evolve into a new weapon in the last year and opens up his offense even more. You’re telling me that the new walking 720 tricks are one-dimensional and add nothing to N.Hawk’s game?

Kuroppi I didn’t expect a post like this from you of all people.

The problem is, T-Hawk is really only worth playing in ST if you can execute at that level. So for 99% of the game playing population, he’s a character that shouldn’t be used. That’s not good game design either.

Regarding Cammy and Fei, HDR certainly has it’s own set of issues as well. I don’t know if that’s relevant in this thread though.

Nigga please. After that legendary whining that you did after SnakeEyez took HDR with Zangief (“he’s worse than O.Sagat and Claw!”), you need to keep it shut about not being able to hang.

[I originally put “Bitch” after that, but I edited it out later, to keep it classy.]

Oh, I fully realize that the loop doesn’t work on every character the same way but that doesn’t change the issue. And I used to play Hawk in ST. Not at an elite level or anything close to it but I’m very familiar with him. And don’t think I don’t know there are many ways to play a character. All the 720 tricks and other cool stuff is highly impressive and fun to watch.

But regardless of all the arguments one can make about the various strategies Hawk can use, it doesn’t change the fact that there is some brokeness to him. It’s all about risk/reward and you can’t deny that the risk/reward on the loop is ridiculously good. And the point that Milo brought up was a game design issue and that’s where I agree with him. That’s all.

I think it’s great game design. There’s a character for everyone, and I’m grateful that a character like Hawk exists for those who can achieve it. Why does everything have to be automatically accessible? If you want that, use claw or boxer. If not, there’s dozens of other characters with varying degrees of operational difficulty.

Milo, that post had nothing to do with winning EVO or anyone’s ability to hang. It had to do with ignorant comparisons of HDR gief to ST gief like they were one in the same.

I’m done with this crap, for some reason I thought the ST section would be void of the retardedness, but I was wrong I suppose.

There’s just something about T-hawk threads it seems.

Exactly this. There’s “some brokenness” to Hawk. This is something that a lot of people don’t want to admit, but deep down inside everybody knows that his safejump-Typhoon-DP install is somewhat broken.

And to those who say that Hawk is well designed, please explain to me why it is that Zangief has a whiff, but not Hawk or Honda? Where’s the logic in that? It’s completely illogical, it’s just another thing that the ST designers overlooked or got wrong. Just like they got wrong the reversal Super bugs for Ken, Sagat and Dhalsim, or them fixing Akuma’s fireball recovery bug in AE but leaving it in for Ryu and Sagat, etc, etc.

Hawk is about brute force and throwing you no matter what. Zangief is about deception/trickery. They play entirely different to each other, it’s not hard to tell the difference between the OS and Zangief having to account for reversals.

I disagree that Boxer is more accessible than T.Hawk – in ST or HDR.

I have seen lots of scrubs try to use T.Hawk. I have seen very few try to use Boxer (and the ones that do give up pretty quickly). Most people can’t even get the hang of holding down three buttons and mounting an offense at the same time.

Boxer is much more effective in the long run, but I don’t see how that makes him more accessible. His strategy certainly isn’t as one-dimensional as T.Hawk’s.

Likewise, my posts here have had nothing to do with whether or not I can “hang” in ST – but that didn’t stop you from bringing the attitude downtown. (Not that I have never been guilty of that myself, of course.)

If you disagree with me that ST has some obvious and undesirable bugs, and that Sirlin attempted to address most of them, and that he succeeded, and that artificially more difficult move inputs add a needless and totally arbitrary level of complexity to the game, then just argue some coherent points. If you want to keep things rigidly germane, you can restrict your observations to T.Hawk (as I have done, mostly). Anything’s better than that putrid ruling class air that you so frequently manifest.

You’re talking about ST, right? 'cause I’m pretty sure tons of things that happen to exist in ST (like, say, T. Hawk’s almost unescapable loop) were probably not designed in the game. It’s not like Capcom was boasting about such features when the game was released or something.

When has capcom ever boasted about any character’s play style? I don’t care if it’s intentional or not. ST turned out to be the best game ever made.

As a hardcore ST player, no, I wouldn’t like it.

Otherwise, my answer would lean towards yes.

if you sub to frijoles and neoray on YT you can avoid this thread altogether :tup:

Butting in on your response to Kuroppi, how do you define “accessible”? Do you mean “having special moves that most people can perform consistently”? (Let’s recall, you are talking specifically about special move inputs, as indicated by the fact that you go on to talk about a select few people in your area who were able to perform SPDs when World Warrior came out, and how cool that was.)

If that is what you mean, then what’s wrong with it? What’s the point of masking access to the game behind extra layers of higher dexterity requirement for certain characters? Is Street Fighter not deep enough that you have to add cheap barriers to entry for some characters, to make it interesting?

If you were playing a game that allowed you to design your own character from scratch, and then use that character vs. other people’s original characters, would you give him/her extra difficult special inputs, just to make him/her interesting?

I’m all for specials requiring more complex inputs, as long as the difficulty of performing them is consistent across the board, for all characters. Making certain characters’ inputs weirdly more difficult than everyone else is the very essence of cheap and lazy game design, and actually betrays a lack of designers’ confidence in their own game mechanics (e.g. “this move is overpowered, so let’s just make it so only a few people can do it consistently”). Death to that. (Fortunately, that practice is becoming outdated, as modern fighting games tend to have less and less of that going on.)

How quickly we change our tune. Just a few days ago, you were citing HDR’s bugs as one reason for your preferring ST. (“HDR has some good fixes like wall dive not knocking down and add 2 more frames to osagat fireball. But it comes with a bunch of bugs, input lag, ugly graphics, etc.”)

Fine. And Sirlin’s changes to ST are what make HDR tourneys so exciting. Finals with a greater diversity of characters, for starters, and you even have low-tier characters occasionally placing high or even winning. Not the same old shotokan/Boxer/Sim/Claw finals that you get over and over again in a vanilla ST competition. (And to Sirlin’s credit, you still don’t have low tier characters dominating the proceedings. They still have to work their tails off, and they’re really no more attractive to scrubs. It’s good enough that they at least show their faces in top eight, now – which they could virtually never do, before.)

Milo, we gotta stop replying to this thread. I’m not trying to convince you, but if you are interested to discussing / understanding other’s viewpoint (I do), I created a separate thread to discuss with no personal attack bs.

I do want to explain my thoughts regarding what you said above.

I have already copied & pasted everyone’s responses and create a new thread. My posts are all deleted

Also to people who have chimed in with their opinions about game design, etc (MiloDC VirtuaFighterFour geo Corrosive ultracombo Nyoronoru damdai Kuroppi Mizuki Shari blitzfu moocus Hitaro0). Would you be willing to modify/delete all your comments here?

Please either delete your post (click “Edit”, “Delete”, select “Delete message” radio box and click on “Delete post” button) or edit out the flame bait & stuff that is not hawk related.

Thanks!

I wish there is a active mod on this forum for this since asking everyone to do this is kinda hard to coordinate.

I’m sorry to everyone else that wishes to stay on topic.

Agreed. It would be nice if this sub-thread were moved to some other forum.