:lol:
Sirlin once told me to beat O Sagat in tourney with Cammy if I thought HDR wasn’t a good game…
So I did.
Sup balance.
I’d just keep it simple, papasi.
Who said anything about “perfect balance”? You’re just trying to reduce my argument to some extreme position, rather than addressing what I actually wrote. Perfect balance is not being discussed here; I’ll settle for no inescapable traps, no grossly overpowered tiger spamming, no totally ambiguous flying circus monkey knock-downs, no overlapping inputs, no random input windows, tourney finals that feature more than the same three or four characters every time, and all the other trash that everyone and his dog knows exists in ST, but is too afraid to talk about for fear of some arrogant punk posting eye-rolling smilies or calling detractors “brainwashed” (instead of responding with a reasoned, informed, and coherent argument).
Really, we’re saying that the aesthetic quality of the art is a game play issue, now? We’re reaching that far?
“A bunch of bugs.” Sure. Cuz vanilla ST is, you know, totally bug-free.
Walking supers, supers that can’t reverse, stored grabs, kara shortening projectile recovery, kara canceling command grabs … all that stuff was, like, intentional.
Right.
Wait, who’s brainwashed, exactly?
Those inputs weren’t simplified to buff the characters, they were simplified to make the characters less artificially difficult to use. There’s no need to “make everything easier across the board” if you simply bring the most difficult maneuvers closer to the level of butt-stupid easiness of most other characters.
In ST, ALL of the bottom tier characters (Cammy, Fei, T.Hawk, and Zangief) have the most difficult special move inputs. That is NOT a coincidence.
Artificial difficulty in games is utter sh!t. Making certain moves easier (not easy, easiER) to perform was one of the best changes that Sirlin made to the game. If I’m playing a character that is already at a major disadvantage against a higher tier character like Ryu or Dee Jay or Claw or Chun-Li, then why the f*ck should I have to contend with more difficult special inputs, while the other guy has brain-dead easy inputs like quarter-circle or hold back, wait a second, hold forward? Makes zero sense. Only a snob would dare to suggest otherwise.
I’ll ask you what I asked whoever else: Should a player be rewarded with an inescapable trap if he manages to perfect the execution of a difficult maneuver? Is that seriously what people are suggesting?
I really don’t care how hard a Hawk player has to play to get close to me. That doesn’t justify completely shutting me down if gets close. Honestly, anyone who thinks otherwise is just, well, a whiny little bitch. Do you see me crying that Cammy should get inescapable traps because she gets owned by almost everyone who throws something? Maybe characters who don’t throw stuff should get inescapable long-range traps as a reward for keeping T.hawk out. That sounds fair to me, if we’re really going to go down that road.
What “let”? Dictator’s cross-up is notoriously ambiguous. It isn’t a question of “letting” him hit; for not guessing right, you lose the round. It’s stupid.
I’m not down with this attitude that anyone who manages to break some turtle’s offense deserves to win the round outright. Everyone who knows me knows how much I despise turtling, but even I will acknowledge that no turtler deserves to suffer game play that heinous. Giving someone who gets in an advantage, sure, that’s fine, but that’s as far as I go.
– Milo
Holy crap, I’ve never seen so many idiotic statements in one post. You truly deserve an award.
Can someone get this man an award?
People like you are the reason I don’t play HDR. There’s too many of you. Now some people here might a more extreme opinon on HDR, but I don’t completely dislike it. Yeah the art completely destroyed the presentation and feel of SF2, a lot of the input changes were completely dumb, such as 15 frames for DP or a HCB SPD/ Typhoon, Sirlin made some idiotic changes to characters he knew nothing about, but he did do some things right. I like HDR Sagat other than his crappy sprites and the tiger knee juggle, the game is more balanced I guess, but much less than you’re probably willing to admit.
Your points have all been completely biased and ignorant. I really don’t know what to tell you. I fail to see why HDR is even considered an option in tourneys when classic mode is easily available and supergun/cabinet setups aren’t really more expensive than consoles. Not only that but HDR has piss poor netcode. GGPO’s is far superior, it’s free, and since it’s on the PC, support for different pads/sticks is easy and you don’t have to deal with different consoles.
It makes no sense how anyone could really support HDR as the tournament standard. A simple change in the tournament style would solve the issue of certain characters being shut down. Perhaps the problem isn’t in the game. Perhaps the unbalanced past of ST is more of a reflection on the players.
LOL, look in the mirror dude.
Really? How much do you think a cabinet setup costs on average? For the record, I have owned two.
Well it’s unfortunate for you that Evo disagrees. But I guess you know better than them?
He isn’t even talking about tournament preference or hardware versatility. Not much of a response.
Do you want to me to list out what he typed so you don’t have to skim over it? I’ll do it nice and slowly.
- ST has its fair share of disagreeable BS.
- People are unwilling to even recognize point #1 because they’re so enamored with ST’s classic gameplay. They’re willing to smash HDR though for similar problems.
- HDR’s look does not detract from its gameplay. Sprite disagreements have nothing to do with wall dives and SPD inescapables.
- A motion to do a special move can be difficult based on its versatility, but the inputs for certain special moves in the bottom 4 characters in ST are unnecessarily difficult for the usefulness of the move in-game. They add no difficulty other than an entry barrier, hence “artificial.”
- Should a player be rewarded with an inescapable trap if he gets in once?
- If a character gets an inescapable loop and it’s completely okay because that character is low tier, would it be fair if Cammy had an inescapable death trap for getting in once because she is low tier?
- Death combos based off a guess and the mistaken response to that guess are imbalanced.
- Inescapable traps and TOD combos are a hindrance to defensive gameplay tactics. There should be advantages to getting in, but not an instant win for being able to execute something difficult.
I don’t agree with everything he wrote, but at least take your time to shut it down if you think it’s idiotic, dumb, etc. rather than rambling.
Stop fuking up this thread.
If its not about ST Hawk strats or doubts dont post. Neo just logged on I will ask him in a few. BBL with his answer
P.S. stop fuking up this thread
[09:34:37 a.m.] djfrijoles: Hi neoray
[09:34:57 a.m.] u: hi
[09:35:07 a.m.] djfrijoles: the americans want to know if there is an escape for release typhoon/dragonpunch trap ?
[09:35:13 a.m.] djfrijoles: no escape ?
[09:35:28 a.m.] u: up to charactor
[09:35:41 a.m.] djfrijoles: ryu cammy no escape ?
[09:35:53 a.m.] djfrijoles: if perfectly executed ?
[09:35:54 a.m.] u: ryu has one way to escape
[09:35:58 a.m.] djfrijoles: ?
[09:36:08 a.m.] u: super combo
[09:36:14 a.m.] djfrijoles: hahaha =(
[09:36:18 a.m.] djfrijoles: cammy super also ?
[09:36:22 a.m.] u: cammy too
[09:36:24 a.m.] u: yes
[09:36:28 a.m.] djfrijoles: ok I thought so
[09:36:33 a.m.] djfrijoles: I will tell them
[09:36:57 a.m.] u: ryu should do tatsumaki senpu kyaku for escaping
[09:37:05 a.m.] djfrijoles: always escapes ?
[09:37:06 a.m.] u: better than syouryu
[09:37:11 a.m.] djfrijoles: but not perfect ?
[09:37:13 a.m.] u: not sure
[09:37:20 a.m.] u: but better than syouryu
[09:37:21 a.m.] djfrijoles: ok thank you again
[09:37:44 a.m.] u: no prob. lol
[09:37:50 a.m.] djfrijoles: =P
Thank you to Señor Frijoles for the vids, and thank you Neo Ray for the vids. Beautiful technique.
Dear Neoray,
Do you modify the spring in your joystick?
Thanks.
Everyone else get that STvsHDR garbage out of this thread.
I’d expect Jab Shoryuken to do better than the Tatsumaki against the NE. Typhoon/Tomahawk trap.
It doesn’t.
I was on the train back home today and couldn’t wait to try all this new stuff so I whipped out ST Revival on my DS. I actually was able to pull off walking 720 on d-pad multiple times!!! (I checked and double checked to see if easy mode was turned on, but it wasn’t, I actually did it. Both from whiff Strong and whiff Jab. Lol.)
Some mod probably ought to move the junk out of this topic.
Anyway, I agree for shoto players, tatsus work better if the T.Hawk player messes up because at least the latter will have to think and work to keep the trap up:
-If the Hawk player does the trap correctly, you’ll get looped either way.
-If he messes up the safe jump or doesn’t block at the end of the OS, he’ll get hit by either reversal.
-If you reversal the grab and he messes up either the grab or dp but is still blocking, chances are more in your favor to tatsu than to dp. If you dp and he blocks, the situation will be reset in his favor. But if you tatsu, there’s a chance of you flying by and maybe getting out.
For anyone who has played my Hawk you know that I pretty much only go for 720s or Touch of Death combos and that I only choose N.Hawk now (if you can’t 720 then go straight to O.Hawk). Everything below is off of the top of my head so find the mistakes and correct them. Later I’ll update everything with video examples as much as I can. Also if people want to post videos of Hawk and ask what is happening I’ll try to break them down (if I understand them that is).
If you do safe jump with built in jab dragon punch, hit-confirm low jab, negative edge 360 with 2-in-1 built in jab dragon punch, with both N.Hawk and O.Hawk, you can beat many characters over and over without them being able to reverse their way out of your input sequence. However that loop is not necessary on many characters either because it is overkill or because it is ineffective.
Cammy cannot reverse her way out of that loop. Neither can N.Ryu or Fei. They can escape if they have a Super to burn, but even then some characters like DJ, Ryu, Chun, and Boxer, can have their Supers be beaten by a jab dragon punch anyways (timing is very tight however and you risk having your input dropped during Super freeze). Cammy can cleanly push Hawk out with a Super though. You can also use safe meaty into walking throw on N.Ryu but the full loop is better. If you accidentally whiff a dragon punch on Fei from close range he gets a free punish that sometimes turns into a touch of death. DJ loses to the full loop but also loses to far crouching short or far crouching jab into 360.
Sagat is extremely difficult to set up a safe jump on, and you cannot repeatedly safe jump him even in the corner because he has the fastest rising time and the tallest standing hitbox. Against Sagat usually you must option select meaty crouching jab with built in dragon punch (this is extremely difficult however). Or you just do unsafe meaty into negative edge 360 with dragon punch install.
Guile you just do safe jump into low jab hit-confirm and then negative edge 360 and then wait. No need to use built in dragon punch as Guile’s flash kicks are so unsafe in their recover periods that you can easily punish them with a dragon punch. If you safe jump and Guile flash kicks then wait and reverse. If he takes the hits and flash kicks against your 360 then you negative edge, wait, and dragon punch the flash kick. Guile’s Super also won’t get him out of the throw loop. However safe jumping Guile is not easy, most of the Hawk versus Guile videos online you’ll find the Hawk players messing up the loop as many times as they land it.
Chun loses to safe far standing meaty neutral jab into walking 360 but the execution for that loop is very hard. N.Ken and the O.Shotos also lose to that loop as well. If they try to jab dragon punch you have to be quick with a punish though, with a hurricane you can punish with some of Hawk’s crouching attacks depending on how far they travel. You cannot risk a dragon punch install on N.Ken and the O.Shotos because if they do a dragon punch of their own it stuffs everything that Hawk has for free basically (except for guarding). O.Shotos dragon punches stuff pretty much everything in the game when going head-to-head with a move.
If you do safe jump jab then negative edge 360 on Honda he will be in range for a reversal command throw which always wins. If you do safe jump jab, low jab, 360 with dragon punch, it is not consistent because of Honda’s collision box. That setup (j.jab, cr.jab, 360) sometimes pushes Honda of out throw range for Hawk, meaning if you 360 then built in dragon punch out of throw range you’ll always get a dragon punch, and if Honda doesn’t reversal attack then you get a whiffed dragon punch. Also if Honda reverses with the butt slam he might trade with Hawk (which effectively gets Honda out of the loop). Also you can’t do walking 360s off of a tick on Honda as he can just sit on stored command throw and negative edge without fear of whiffing a normal. If you do a walking throw on Honda it’s usually from way, way outside of his throw range. O.Honda has no command throw but he can still go for butt slam reversals over and over to try to trade out or go for headbutts and hope you mess up your dragon punch.
Boxer is immune to dragon punch install because his headbutts cleanly beat both N.Hawk and O.Hawk’s dragon punches. Just safe jump him, if he reverses then go for either 360 throw punish, or standing jab into dragon punch punish combo. If he takes the hit to keep charge then hit-confirm a combo to knock him down (not easy at all). If he has a Super then you can actually dragon punch him out of it if he tries to reverse a 360 attempt (this is hard as hell but it’s possible). If you safe jump his Super then you must block it I believe however.
Dictator, he can jump and duck out of Hawk’s normal loops. You must use safe far standing jab into walking 360 or safe crouching jab into 360. Dictator can also pop out of Hawk’s throw attempts. If you use unsafe meaty he can reversal throw and you won’t soften it and you’ll be open for a touch of death. Also watch out for Dictator having a Super meter, you must negative edge if he has full meter or is one special move away from meter.
Zangief. You have to mix up your throws like crazy as Zangief can always reversal throw you off of a regular tick (he has a greater throw range). Some tricks are to bait a reversal SPD from Zangief then hit it with a dragon punch, jump after your tick and dive right into Zangief (beats everything but block basically), or bait an SPD and jump directly into Zangief and hit him with a full touch of death combo (this is awesome when it happens). Zangief is also vulnerable to walking 720 (have fun with that) or 720 built into a crouching short (have even more fun trying that).
Dhalsim is just elbow drop, crouching short, 360, and repeat (I think this reliably pushes Dhalsim out of throw range). If he teleports then you need to try to get on top of him immediately. However getting in on Dhalsim is easier said than done.
Claw you can loop just the same as Guile. No need to do built in dragon punch I believe. Claw can use the backflip to run away from throw attempts but that won’t work as well in the corner.
Blanka is very annoying, you can’t safe jump him, you can safe meaty but if he does a reversal ball he’s way outside of direct punish range. If you corner Blanka you can do crouching forward meaty into 360 with dragon punch. Also if Blanka hits you with a ball he’s near the corner you can try to walk in and score a walking 360. Blanka can also duck under Hawk’s jumping jab and jumping short which is insanely annoying (Dictator and Cammy can both do this as well).
Why worry about the Hawk loop when I don’t think anyone in the US can actually do it 100% (Hell even the Japanese drop it.)
Okay that was a dumb question.
Anyways this is what I say: If you got yourself into the mess, it’s your problem. Prevent it, keep him out. It’s your job as a player to learn the fucking matchup and know what you can do. I don’t have much time now, but I can give information on how to keep out O.Hawk if anyone has any questions in depth later on. If you’re having problems keeping out Hawk with Cammy, you’re playing the matchup horribly wrong. Maybe you should actually learn your character before calling him BS.
Go on GGPO and play Damdai.
Wow, that was a nice list, VF4, but I was wondering about what happens if Chun does a reversal SBK to avoid the 360/dp OS. She’s also got reversal Neckbreaker, but I think that loses to the dp. Is it possibly a mixup of super/Neckbreaker or SBK versus OS dp or OS block? Or could Hawk get around that by doing NE SPD, wait 18-25 frames, DP?
Brilliant. So, when a T.hawk player gets in, it has nothing to do with his skill as a player; he just got lucky because his opponent messed up (“you got yourself into the mess”). Therefore, the T.Hawk user deserves to win.
I thought we were playing a game where mental acumen, knowledge of match-ups, psychological warfare, consistent execution, and the ability to rapidly and constantly assess the situation and adapt to it were the key factors – not a game in which someone with nimble hands should automatically win a round because the odds were against him and he wasn’t skilled enough to beat them without lucking out.
Your argument (such as it is) doesn’t even try to address fights vs. characters who have more trouble keeping T.Hawk out, or who have to get close to him to do any significant damage. But heck, why acknowledge a problem and offer a solution (e.g. whiff animation, which Sirlin introduced in HDR) when that would force you to admit that the game has issues?
I am attempting to do that. I’ve already asked what I can do vs. typhoon/tomahawk option select, because eventually I’m going to find myself in that situation (as I have in the past). So far, the answers (“it’s inescapable, you’d better have a super”) aren’t very promising. Smells like ass, dude.
I’m not interested in your advice on keep-away games vs. T.Hawk. I’m pretty well versed in that lore already. What concerns me is what to do should he actually get in (sorry to ruin your little fiction, but this is going to happen numerous times over the course of playing the game for the better part of twenty years – it’s no one’s fault, that’s just mathematical probability, junior). I want to know what my options are versus a Hawk who has the hands for option select bullsh!t.
If I have no options, then that is sh!t game design (or, at best, an undesirable side effect that should be rectified).
Milo, I don’t think you are in danger of ever being at a point where any sort of high level discussion matters, so don’t sweat it. This is the grandmaster challenge. There’s a version that was artificially modified for those that couldn’t hang.