Just out of curiosity, what is the best counter against T.Hawk’s option select bullshit?
Or is the goal here to basically master a technique for which there is no real answer? (Which I guess would explain why a lot of people are starting to pick up T.Hawk.)
the trick to hawk is keeping him out. if you let him in, it should be assumed that he will tick throw you to death.
I played a ryu player the other day. he escaped twice from the neg edge spd with a reversal dp. the reverse msg came on the screen and everything. i still got him the 3rd time.
Option select loops are not tick throws. The answer to a tick throw attempt is obvious: perform a reversal.
I could be wrong, but I think the whole point of performing o.s. loops is to cover all of your opponent’s options. (i.e. Grab him if he does nothing, uppercut him if he does.) People aren’t racing to learn T.Hawk just because he has tick throws.
I think you should be more worried about the neg edge spd. its much easier to do and much meaner then the option select stuff.
the option select stuff depends on which character your using. off the top of my head ken can get out of the spd/dp option with reversal dp.
ryu, honda trade with hawks dp.
cammy loses so if hawk does perfect execution on spd/dp option she is kind of stuck. her dp loses clean against hawks dp.
I don’t think anyone can get the option select loop going 100 percent so I wouldn’t worry about it too much. but lets just say they can, you need to keep him out or find a character that has a higher priority reversal then hawks dp.
PS.
it is a form of tick throw because your safe jump is the tick. then you option the spd or the dp.
As it happens, I am a Cammy player, so unavoidable option select (of which set negative edge grabs are a member) is a concern for me. (Note: This does not apply to HDR, since T.Hawk’s option select b.s. was fixed in Sirlin’s game – yet another reason for me to prefer that version.)
I’m just asking: Against a player who has mastered o.s. tactics, what is the appropriate counter once he gets in? Throw the round? Pray? What? (“Pick another character” is not a valid answer, assuming we are talking about a competently designed game.)
Wow, nice! I should really get into the SF4 boat. I don’t play the game so I don’t know how excited people actually get when something new’s discovered. But with this. WOW. I’m excited!
Jesus, do you know how hard it is for hawk to get a knock down on cammy? this is my second most dreaded match up after honda. hawks DP is his main way to get a knock down, but cammy can duck cleanly under and combo hawk as he’s coming down for a possible dizzy(cr forward cr forward RH drill).
ST hawks dive knocks down, but he bounces back and won’t be able to get close enough to cammy to set up any tick spd’s or o/s’s. if you use cr forward to zone hawk all day, it would be a super dick move against hawk.
cammy’s up kick is safe if hawk blocks as well. if he blocks the up kick and walks forward for the pd, cammy can just up kick again. I don’t think cammy players really have to worry about the O/S setups. I have easier times getting in on sim then I do against good cammy players. this match is really loop sided against hawk, just work on your zoning and you will be fine.
Yeah yeah yeah, I realize all that. Cammy vs. Hawk is a fairly easy fight for her, everyone knows this.
I still want to know what to do vs. T.Hawk option select grabs. I’m looking for an actual answer, not indignation at merely asking the question.
Say I’m cornered vs. T.Hawk. What is my best answer vs. a T.Hawk who uses the option select typhoon? What is my out?
from my understanding so far hawk vs cammy, perfect execution should be inescapable. if frijoles could ask Neo we can get a final answer.
Frijoles: if you are able to ask them, might as well ask which other characters can’t escape if perfect execution is involved. and which characters can get out using what tactics.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think any of Ryu’s reversal options do much good in this situation. Hurricane kick loses to built-in DP, and Ryu’s DP will get stuffed by it as well. O.Ryu’s DP might work though, not sure.
I think if you’re cornered in this situation against someone who knows what he’s doing then, well, you’re pretty much fucked. Mash DP and mash throw and pray that they mess up the admittedly difficult execution.
I figured as much.
And, are we saying that inescapable traps are a good thing? That a Hawk player in a bad match-up should be rewarded with them if his execution is spot-on?
Yeah, execution rules.
To escape, you basically need a move that is either invincible or airborne on start up, is either safe on block or whiff (depending on which it winds up doing at that range), and doesn’t get hit by an OS DP. The other option is to avoid the safe jump, which requires a move that (on start-up) will make the safe jump whiff, doesn’t lose to a DP install, and is safe on either whiff or block (once again, depending on which happens at that range). If you have a move that beats an OS DP of either type, either by avoiding it or by hitting it, and a move that is safe on block, Hawk will have to guess which you’ll use and you could get out if he guesses wrong.
For example, I don’t know if this actually works, but it looks like Cammy’s super should be able to avoid an OS DP by going under it, but it isn’t safe on block. So if Hawk OS DPs, you’ll get out, but if he blocks, he can continue the trap. But, let’s also say that Spinning Backfist will avoid the Typhoon, is safe on block, and is fast enough that Hawk won’t be able to just DP it on reaction. If he OS DPs, he’ll hit it and continue the trap, but if he just blocks, you’ll be out.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
The domination of a two-man Hawk team (Toutanki and K) at X-Mania VII caused people to re-evaluate O.Hawk’s potential, if they hadn’t already. In recent years there’s been more Hawk players appearing in the scene, or at least appearing in match vids – players like Shin, VIPER, Hiroyan, Inomata.
Hawk is no longer seen as a throwaway or worthless character outside Japan either. The increased game knowledge we have now compared to years past means players are better informed about his potential as a character, and I think it’s safe to say that he’s getting used a lot more than before.
shrug Roll your eyes all you like, kid. No doubt it’ll score you points with your legion of fellow travellers on the Sirlin hate train, but as a cogent response, it says nothing at all.
I haven’t gone back to ST since picking up HDR, and I don’t plan to. I accidentally got into an ST match on XBL, and played Cammy. It felt like playing with an anvil; she’s clunky, her special inputs are a huge joke, and her :mp: and :hp: backfists are completely useless. In short, she’s artificially difficult to use, and that is just bad game design, James Chen be damned (sorry, man). If HDR dies, that’s it for me, maybe I’ll pick up MvC3 or something (not SSF4, game’s trash).
I am seeing more variety in HDR tourney top eights than I’ve ever seen in ST, which almost always comes down to Boxer, O.Sagat, and Ryu, maybe a Claw and a Dhalsim now and then. F*ck that, son. Gief winning a tourney? Two Cammys top eight? Pretty much never happens in vanilla. Plus, people win HDR matches legit; sure, it’s got issues, but you see a lot less inane crap like constant ambiguous wall dive knock-downs, option select traps, and tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger, TIGER UPPERCUT.
In fact, I have yet to read a single well-reasoned argument in favor of vanilla ST over HDR. Much of the bitching about HDR comes down to people lamenting (a) a lack of poor game design that allows them to employ all manner of highly ambiguous or inescapable trickery to their advantage, and/or (b) the loss of formerly egregious match-ups that take more effort to win in HDR’s compressed tiers.
I’ve mentioned what I don’t like about HDR before. Sirlin went overboard nerfing Chun-Li, and he went overboard buffing Zangief. Guile is scrubby, now. Claw is still scrubby. Fei Long’s chicken wing is an overpowered panacea. But I’ll take any of this over wall dive knock-downs, special grab option select loops, overlapping and artificially difficult special move inputs (on bottom tier characters, no less), random input windows, Honda having no chance vs. fireball throwers, tiger spamming, and any of the other silly garbage that people pretend is so cool just to spite Dave Sirlin and maintain the haughty air of one who fashions himself some kind of Street Fighter aristocrat. But I’ve been playing this game from day one, and I think I know a good argument from bullsh!t.
Cheers.
I like both HDR and ST, but you’ve nailed this one. Bravo sir.
Already read that. NKI is basically mad because Sirlin nerfed his main. His rant basically amounts to his finding a few quirks, then deciding on that extremely weak basis that ST is the better game (which is suspiciously convenient for a Chun-Li player).
Hell, I play Chun-Li myself – she was my main before ST Cammy – but I don’t let that blind me to all that’s better in HDR.