Strange. Whenever I do it from far range and my enemy blocks, I get my SPD. If I come out right in front of them, I get my SPD anyway. Also, Spire is like the best AA T. Hawk has in store. Yeah, you can’t use it in combos and that is lame, but the EX-version is combo able.
Was just talking about this last night with my brother. Condor Spire has to be like, one of the worst moves I’ve ever come across in a fighting game. it just doesn’t accomplish a damn thing, unless it’s EX.
At least Spire doesn’t make you look stupid. Tomahawk-Flying over a STANDING opponent is pretty darn embarassing.
EX Condor Spire is great… I dont mind that too too much…
Its one of the worst moves in the entire game. Sure it has its moments with frame traps…“karas” but if they have the reaction, the move is entirly useless. With it being as it is, T.Hawks only move to cover space quickly, its absolutly horrible. I use the move a lot too and I know how to make it safe and when to use it. But it just does not make sense to me how a move is negative on hit and block… =/
I don’t know, I always liked the fact that it goes over lows while getting Hawk inside (acting with far forward to cover his wide stance; working off of far jab pressure), is inter-changeable with EX Spire anytime you have a bar, which can easily lead to failed punishes/escape opportunities as the opponent worries about Hawk burning the bar instead of normal Spire/walking/jab Typhoon (from about max jab Typhoon range, jab spire is relatively safe), can punish different escape options based on the strength used and the overall threat of having it.
Just being able to Spire in for free on hit/block at specific distances from neutral pretty much means a smart opponent will watch those distances and either stay out of range looking for a whiff punish, focus -> back-dash more often than normal looking for a focus crumple or worry more about spire (looking for it to give a clean reactionary punish, throwing out high-angled pokes more often to stuff it, etc) and give you an edge in other areas of the footsie game. That’s pretty much Hawk gaining space just because he has one move. I don’t see it being used very often up-close outside of raw guesses vs teleports/back-dashes, which is fine in small doses (or when the opponent won’t respect it >_>), so the point-blank hit/block disadvantage doesn’t really matter, imo.
Edit: Jump jab/strong are good, imo. The angle stuffs some grounded AA options from a few key characters (Guile crouch fierce and Sagat roundhouse to name a few). They have their uses.
Yeah I’m not saying spire is not a good move, I abuse it as much as I can but at high level it’s so bad… Players listen for the sound of it. It as funny, I was playing some sets ith this kid on xbl last night and he kept using CS and I kept punishing it with stand short at max range.l if your opponent has the reaction then it’s worthless. But what’s random is that it’s useful in pressure strings. I almost now exclusively use the ex version for pressure. The fierce and strong versions are nice in long attack strings to catch people pushing buttons. Jump strong and jab are great… I prefer strings little bit better due to ease of hit confirming.
Close fierce is actually a really good normal. I started using it more and it’s pretty dumb. Since its +1 on block it’s really hard to punish on block… I’m not saying its amazing but ive found some usability.
At high level, if you have players focusing on that sound as well as trying to keep up with everything else going on then Spire is doing its job. If it’s not a threat the opponent wouldn’t care, right? That goes for ex Spire too, that’s not much harder to punish on reaction than the others (especially since he glows first). And far short isn’t a very good punish (just saying). >_>
I was trying to tell him that the move is not that good that you can just throw it out all the time. At max range you can’t really punish it with much…in a footsie situation you cant sweep it on reaction in the mirror.
Its really kind of makes me angry. People think thawk is free so the neglect to understand the matchup. You’d suprised how many people think that jab, spire is a true block string…
I like spire in jab pressure. T.hawks jab is really good since, as I was stating a while ago, its almost boxer status,3 frames,stupid frame advantage on hit and block. It’s nice to inturupt it with spire to catch back dash and such. I just don’t like it raw. Hah, like it raw…anyway.
I don’t like using it just randomly in footsie situations, is what I’m trying to say.
^Noted, you can’t abuse it (during footsies or otherwise). But, for example, the opponent has to be pretty far to sweep/whatever it on whiff, which is a lot of space you can walk up and take. Threat of the Spire is a part of the move’s usefulness too.
I find it very irritating for shotos or any fireball characters that just throw so many fireballs and try to AA my jump ins. Lucky they whiff most of the time since I know when to jump at a distance that they can’t AA me, but I’m seeing this everyday. I could be more patient and rack up my wins easily, but only when that happens it becomes more rewarding. I probably have a better chance of waiting for my opponent to come to me then for me to come to them.
I started to realize that standing MK is very good. It stuffed an EX move of Ryu and Sagat’s DP once on wake-up. Looks effective to use.
^ Thats why it stuffed EX Moves like DP on wake up and EX Fireball…
Here is a list of the pokes we should all be abusing…
Jab
Crouch Strong
Crouch Fierce
Dont feel like copying and pasting all of the hitboxes its like 6 of them… all are good
Jump Fierce
Crouch short
Stand Short
Stand Fierce
Crouch Forward
Stand Forward
Stand Roundhouse
Crouch Roundhouse
All of his pokes are useful but these are his best honestly…
Man, I love Double Typhoon. It catches so many things because it’s instant and if you manage to get it off in a block string your opponent is so fucked.
I wonder if any of you are actually working on getting a full bar to apply a super in specific matchups? I know Hawk needs a lot of meter, but I find myself building up max meter a lot of the times.
It even has more range than Ultra 1, soo good.
PS: Spire also beats Ibuki’s Ultra 2 once active.
Whats funny about T.Hawks super is that I really dont use it that much… I like the meter for other things… I mean this is not to say I dont use it…
Looks like Ultra 1 isn’t an instant throw afterall. I just got hit in the face by Ryu’s super during the grab animation. Fucking stupid shit game.
I didn’t know Hard Tomahawk beats Blanka U1, saw it in a replay yesterday and took note of it.
Also I managed to catch a teleport of Dhalsim with U2 today, very nice. I hope it will always hit Dhalsim no matter how fast I react.
Ryu’s Super has a 2 Frame Startup. I’m guessing Chun Li’s Super and Dudley’s Super will probably stuff his Ultra as well o_O
So what exactly do they consider “instant”? You know, I didn’t even try to counter his Super with Ultra 1. Hawk almost touched his head and he was able to activate right before he did. Stupid.
Any move with a 1 Frame Startup.
Ultra 1 has 1 frame startup and it got beat by a super that was activated AFTER the freeze.
I don’t like it. It will probably never happen in a grave moment, but the fact it can is not satisfying.
It probably has something to do with the invincibility window. The same thing goes for Abel’s EX Tornado Throw. It has so much invincibility that it’ll out-throw T.Hawk’s Raging Typhoon, Zangief’s Final Atomic Buster, and etc.
That’s one of the things I hate about SF4. You can be in the absolute perfect position to use an Ultra, but if a character has a move with so much invincibility (Abel’s EX Tornado Throw, Rufus’s EX Messiah Kick) it’ll completely counter the Ultra and you end up paying the price instead…>:(