T.Hawk Laboratory

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
181

Ultra David was bang on about Option Selects for Thunder Hawk and I have only scratched the surface, but what I have found has peaked my interest in him and I only picked him up yesterday:

No vids, but what I found came after a mp spd (was wondering why you would use it, but now I know it puts you at the best range to safe jump). My ideas came after thinking about how Ryu uses his DP as an option select if people try to reversal his safe jumps. With EX tomahawk you can do some real interesting stuff for example:

mp spd, safe jump hk - option select EX tomahawk (if they reversal) or jabs if they dont reversal. This for example beat EX headbutt and buttslam for Honda as reversals, EX headbutt for Balrog, EX psycho crusher for Bison, EX wheel kicks for juri. It needs testing more, but forget this on shotos their dragons are too good. I did test it on EX messiah too and it seemed to whiff, while EX messiah whiffed too and both characters ended up at opposite ends of the screen.

I also tested briefly meaty cross up splash on shotos, option select EX tomahawk or jabs if they take it. What happened is the splash stuffed the start up if they tried to delay the DP (which meant a combo) or the DP would whiff as you cross them up, but EX tomahawk would auto correct and hit them in the air lol (only tested vs EX DP’s).

As I said, this is surface scratching stuff, but think about a grappler, with the ability to force people to block safe jump ins and take pressure and the risk of more SPD’s, or reversal and end up on the floor with T Hawk stood right next to them. I am certain this guy has some real technical depth once you get beyond his simplistic surface. IMO people are sleeping onhis true ability to pressure and just thinking it is all about normals and SPD.

Lastly option selecting his sweep kills back dashes, as does s.hk, EX spire, and c.hp - good for meaty wake up attacks when you know they cant reversal with an invincible type move.

Oh and one other last thing, who is using c.hp as an AA - very good in certain situations - will test it more for sure.

I have mained Honda for the last 9 months and did not see myself changing - this is the closest I have felt about doing so in all that time. Will definately see how I go with Hawk for the next week or so and what options are like vs each character before taking the plunge full time.

182

Good stuff. But I have some doubts. I really don’t see how it is possible that an ex TB with only 7f of invinicibility can beat Balrogs ex headbutt that has 15f of full invinicibility. Doesn’t seem possible. I don’t know about the rest and I can’t test any of it for a few days. But good stuff if any of it turns out to be legit.

183

My understanding of it is it is not just about invinsibility frames, but move priority and how many start up and active frames of invincibility a move has too - this is why EX DP will stuff EX messiah even though EX messiah has more full frames of invincibility. Otherwise invincible moves would just pass through one another if done at the same time lol.

184

there is no such thing as priority in SF4. And fully invincible moves do pass through each other if they both have enough frames. Example: ryu ex dp and balrog ex HB. It sounds like you just assumed a lot and listed the moves you thought it would work on and didn’t actually test them. So like i said. It will still be good if any of it works. So as soon as someone tests and confirms and maybe makes some videos it will be good.

185

Can you actually lay this out for me? I understand the concept of Option Select, bit putting into practice what you said…I’m not getting it. I did watch the video posted above, and like I said, I get the ideas…

Thanks.

186

Pumpkin - I was beating ex headbutt with Option Select EX DP as well. I tried it out before he posted and it definitely was working for me as well. At worst, I got them both to go through eachother

TAMANA - good shit on finding uses for mp 360. I couldnt find one. Is timing the safe jump hk hard? I dont use hk that much as a jumpin.

187

Yeah, I am the same way. I get the OS Crouch tech, but I don’t understand anything more complicated. I would suggest the Zangief forum.I know he has a lot of option selects. I’m about to go check it out right now to see if there are any vids/guides that explain how to do the more complicated ones.

188

@ Danmishima and Stricnine - Go to youtube and put Zangief Option Select as a search. Ultra Davids video explaining these with Gief is a really good way of understanding it. It builds it up from crouch techs, right the way through to its most complex uses, reasons you would do it and executing it well. He has text boxes explaining what he is doing too.

EDIT: Links - [media=youtube]6CzpKOD1v1I[/media]

and - [media=youtube]FC8UIIm704I[/media]

and - [media=youtube]FC8UIIm704I[/media]

@ PumkinBomber - Instead of calling me a fraud, why not try them first. Do you really think I have such a wild imagination that I could say that EX Messiah completely whiffs, or that EX Tomahawk auto corrects on the DP whiff. I said them becasue it is what happened. Maybe you are bitter that some Honda player who picked T Hawk up 48 hours earlier and has had about 50 fights with him has seen something you wish you had - It came to me as an idea becasue of having to face Ryu and his DP option select off safe jumps so I know how it feels being on the receiving end. Here are a few others I have since made up - EX headstomp with Bison trades and EX scissors whiffs like Messiah. What I will say is it needs testing more as I did these for an hour last night. As for priority with moves - tell me why well timed Demon flip kick with Akuma stuffs Hondas EX headbutt with a load of its invincible frames or a jab can beat blanka ball or headbutt when it is in fact just two hit boxes meeting one another?

EDIT: another one I just magic’d out of thin air - mp spd, safe jump option select EX DP/jabs = cody ex zonk knuckle beaten clean.

@ Gridaman - The safe jump timing is not easy for HK and actually might be better off a j.hp - but this is why all this needs testing thouroughly and by more than one person to confirm it works. My post was after some sucess with it and not a be all and end all conclusion. What I am certain of is that once the timing and spacing is learnt, this will be very strong against certain characters and might change the way people view Hawk and maybe even his place in the tierlist a little. There might be posibilities for some of this to work with HP Tomahawk too becasue that move has startup and active frames of invincibility from what I understand. I also tried some EX condor spire, but it does not work very well - EX messiah killed it clean and EX headbutt with Honda gave him a counter hit for a clean 200 damage.

Iam interestd to see other peoples findings on this for sure.

189

I get that…I get the concept. What I don’t get is what YOU are doing OS-wise. Setups, what supposed to happen, etc. I’m more than capable of helping test this, but tell me what’s supposed to be done.

190

^^ He said after mp 360, safe jump heavy kick, option select ex dp, jab jab. So if they do anything to avoid the heavy kick, ex dp will come out. otherwise jab jab will come out.

191

not saying your’re wrong since i do get your point but there is such a concept as priority in sf4. it’s based on unspoken assumptions of when each characters initiate their moves and at what distance from each other. most people don’t lay this out when saying move A beats move B.

for example most of chun li’s pokes has great “priority” against all other if done at the same time and at close range, due to start-up times and hit box calculation.

192

"… Unless someone finds a way to option select U2 it will always be a sometimes sketchy, but perfectly viable Ultra.

It just seems that the same points will just keep coming up and they will always have the same counter arguments." - Stricnine

Stricnine brought a good point from a different thread. Could we swap ex-TB with U2 in your medium.SPD option-select? Could this handle an ex-Messiah?

193

There is no such one property as priority. Moves in based on frame data. Startup, active, invincibility properties. That’s it. Most people group all those together as priority. But don’t really understand it isn’t a property unto itself.

Also to other guy, I’m not calling you a fraud. I can only comment on balrog info since he is my main.

194

There is some chances vs shotos you could OS ultra 2 - I will test it later. Otherwise I have a setup off lp SPF for anyone with a dp that seems water tight so far in terms of extra damge if they try and reversal. On the iPhone so not going to post a load now.

Against Honda, bison, rog …etc I spent a by more time and need to figure out the spacing and bet just in. Seemed a bit more hi and miss this afternoon on bison and Honda. Vs rog it seemed pretty solid. I am starting to think that certain jump ins of an untechable knockdown might have to vary from character to character but I will def have 2-3 hours to check more in the lab so to speak.

Post later.

195

I am sure this has been talked about but can T.Hawk FADC out of anything? If not, is he the only character in the game who cannot FADC?

196

Thanks Tamana! I’ll check them out after work and jump into training mode to practice.

@Original Baller. Hawk cannot FADC his specials, but I don’t know if there is anyone else who can’t.

197

Heh…tell that to any of us T Hawk-ers fighting Blanka and you’ll likely end up with a mouthful of your own teeth…lol That matchup is a broken as it gets. There’s almost no point. I’m seriously going to get a stick with turbo, tape the jab button down and move the stick from D to DF as neseccary.

198

Ok back from a longer testing session and am left a little disappointed :-(.

Firstly on shotos or DP characters without a teleport - I went through lp SPD setup, meaty splash (looks like it corsses up but does not… if they block. However if they lp, mp or hp DP as a reversal the splash crosses up and beats their reversal clean as a cross up hit. If they EX DP then it whiffs and you can follow up), with the option select of EX Tomahawk if they EX DP, or jabs if they take the block. Was all working nicely, EX Tomahawk was auto correcting and hitting the EX DP at its peak and all other reversals were loosing to the splash…I was felling happy with myself, when it dawned on me there was one other get of jail card I had not tried - backdash. Low and behold I backdash with Ryu and the whole option select falls apart as EX Tomahawk whiffs and leaves T Hawk wide open to some big ass combo. Now not all is lost with this as Condor Spire (EX version) would still give you a hit on EX DP as the shoto is falling and would deal with the backdash. My only problem with this, is I could not get it to option select even though yesterday I could (not consistently, but sometimes). If there is a way to get EX Condo Spire to work consistently this setup will be water tight IMO vs Ryu, Ken, Cammy, Fei, Sagat, Dudley, Dan. If Spire wont work then it is not worth the EX meter to then eat a combo from a backdash. You could potentially simplify things though - lp SDP, meaty splash, option select c.hp or c.hk/jabs. This would beat the back dash and becasue all other areas loose to Hawk or the EX DP whiffs, then you have an opening (It needs testing though).

Next I went back to look at the mp SPD setups with safe jumps. Again things were looking good until I realised on some characters like Bison the safe jump hk will whiff completely if he crouches on wake up. On Balrog on the other hand it wont and option selecting EX Tomahawk works well. Basically this would need testing character by character, with different ranges and jump ins used to see what works and what does not. The setup still has legs IMO, but will be very character specific and not be viable at all for some characters - forget using this on Akuma or Seth with their teleports until an option is worked out to auto correct spire as an option select.

Lastly I tried U2 as an option select on the shoto setup above to punish the EX DP whiff - I got it to work once out of about 40-50 attempts - too many fucking shortcuts means the game gets a bit confused at times when trying it.

Before I finsih this post, I have to say (and it is something I have not noticed as much with charge characters), but shortcuts are a real double edged sword. When I was trying to U2 option select, the amount of times I got EX command grab or Super was so annoying, but the Ultra motion needs to be lightening. The other thing I have noticed, which makes Condor Spire difficult as an Option Select is you cannot shortcut it - you have to get the exact motion for it to come out. Tomahawk buster you can DF x 2 no problem. Condor Spire DB x 2 and you get crouching whatever button you pressed - it is the only DP motion in the game I know of that has specific inputs??? There were some occasions I got Condor Spire to come out as an Option Select for it then to become a command grab as an auto correct lol.

Oh and as a design complaint for T Hawk why did they make his Ultra 2 half circle back x 2? Fuerte gets a piss easy quarter circle firward setup as does Abel? It is so counter intuitive to anti air with the motion they gave it. Back on to Spire too - why make it reverse DP without a short cut. The amount of times I have been closing sace on a shoto, moving forward, to then reaction EX Spire a fireball for EX Tomahwak to come out becasue the game registered the forward press first (something easily ironed out with practice but annoying), but even more easily sorted if they made it a forward DP using kicks (the big guy has no Specials using kicks so why not use them and let it hvae shortcuts for speed of uses and no way you would get it mixed up with Tomahawk).

Anyway looking forward to some second opinions on this stuff and any other discoveries - I am very tempted to pick up T Hawk despite some of the setbacks this evening.

199

If they tweaked him just a little, he would soooo dominate the game. Really. What if DF+LP was a 2 hit move…you can cancel it on the first for a TB or a CS, or punish them in of the 2nd hit with SPD, Super or U1? Holy hell I’m foaming at the mouth just thinking about the possibilities. If U2 was a 2x QCT…OMG. DP - caught. Jump back - caught. He can’t FADC anything…if he could and he had U1…good f’n night. Gief has FADC, but I think he can only do it from the clothesline, which severly limits his options.

Pick him up, you won’t regret it. He’s incredibly fun to play.

200

I think the reason Condor spire is backwards dp motion is because if it was forward dp motion with kicks you would be able to float over any low pokes and fireballs pretty much on reaction off of forward walking. Sucks because that one change would make him much more viable. No idea why the input is so strict though.

As for U2 input yeah i agree it sucks. What seems to help me is to buffer it during a poke, then if they jump just hit 3P. For option selecting, I sadly have no idea and can see how trying to mash out several inputs all together could make it very difficult.

Honestly I think he is fun as hell to play and with maybe, just maybe, all the things that you more experienced people are working on (Big thank you by the way) he will end up being better than originally thought. Even if it takes some crazy execution to make it happen I’m willing to work with that if it will help my game. Hawk is fun for me and if we find out that he is a deeper character than originally thought with some tough execution, all the better in my opinion. Okay I’m off to the training room to practice some of these option selects. Hope I can get this figured out and contribute at some point rather than just leeching off of others ideas and theory crafting. :wgrin:

For the first time in a while this forum is getting me excited. Real talk.