Hi guys, I searched capcom unity threads and tried to compile a buff list for most characters, based on the sugestions posted there.
The idea is - stronger characters will receive less buffs, weaker ones more, and top tiers mostly nothing.
I will post the entire buff list on capcom unity on week 5.
This is Hawk’s list:
T. Hawk
Condor Spire: - reduce the start up by 3 frames for normal versions (17)
L Condor Spire: gains projectile invincibility from frame 8 until recovery
M Condor Spire: gains armor breaking property; blockstun reduced by 4 frames (-12)
Ex Condor Spire: same range as fierce Spire
H Tomahawk Buster: reduce the start up by 1 frame (7)
Condor Dive: more advantage on hit.
Mexican T.: +10 dmg for L (160) and H (240) versions
cr. MK: +5 dmg (75)
Ultra 2: more horizontal range
motion changed to kicks
cl MP: +10 dmg (80)
cl st HP: reduce the pushback
Ultra 1: Needs to give T.hawk more time after the knockdown
far st HP: reduce the recovery by 3 frames (18); reduce the hitstun by 1 (so it is -2 on block/+1 on hit)
far st HK: +2 blockstun (-5)
Thrust Peak: +3 hitstun (-1)
Explanations:
[details=Spoiler]
C. Spire: They start up far too slow to be threatening as most players will hit you out of it on reaction.
L Spire: T.hawk cannot safely build meter on any character with a fireball at all.
Stark contrast with Zangief who can build meter by whiffing lariats all day.
Giving him an option to slowly/barely advance while building meter would be a godsend.
Making invincibility start late prevents t.hawk from abusing it to get in as he will have to do it early to go through.
M Spire: After a block string ending with far light kick, T.hawk is only really capable of cancelling into Condor Spire to get back in threat range.
When t.hawk is without meter, opposing players will most likely focus attack to absorb and then punish the spire since he has no option presenting sizable risk.
Giving him a natural armor breaking move will create some form of mixup to allow him an opportunity back in.
In exchange, the degree of risk on this move needs to be increased. Currently at worst MP Spire is (-8 on block/-6 on hit).
In order to preserve the sense of balance, MP Spire should be adjusted to (-12 on block/-6 on hit)
However the logistics get twisted, the block string cr.lp x2 + far st.lp + far.lk cancelled into MP spire should be -6 at that spacing.
Ex Spire: To close distance safely, EX spire doesn’t go far enough and Fierce is too slow in terms of speed.
EX spire should be the Alpha and Omega of spires combining range, safety, speed, and utility
H T. Buster: Currently, it gets counter hit a little too often. Making it faster should help it a little bit.
Condor Dive: Condor Dive’s Risk/Reward ratio is heavily skewed. Most of the time he only lands the 120 damage and is forced to play neutral game again.
This is not justified for a move that gets punished with ultras on block.
M. Typhoon: slightly more so he’s not quite as screwed in case the post grab mixup doesn’t work out, still less than Zangief’s though; a bit more of a threat.
cr Mk: T.hawk gets out damaged during footsies to all characters that can 2-in-1 a cancellable low normal into a special (think ryu cr.mk xx Hadoken = 130 damage)
It’s current frame data (-2 on block/+1 on hit) combined with its startup of 6 frames practically bars you from hitting a button again at poke ranges knowing you’ll get beat out)
Increasing the damage would preserve the flow of his overall game while somewhat increasing his damage.
Ultra 2: When t.hawk has some characters in the corner he often falls into this dead space of not being able to ultra 2 them for neutral jumping if they don’t hit a button.
However if they do it will work. It should get slightly more horizontal range to guarantee it’s success in the corner as well as for people jumping away from him.
cl Mp: Close medium punch is the go to normal for t.hawk for anti-air and combos. the nerf to its damage from Super to AE wasn’t really justified.
Giving him a slight increase to damage would be tremendous as T.hawk has this false reputation of doing massive damage.
His body splash mixups (Splash > Cl.MP > DP) = 284 lp dp/300 mp dp/308 FP DP are his primary source of damage.
In any match where he cannot make those count, his damage becomes incredibly gimped (120 here/low 200 there) as he has no far cancellable normal that combos nor do i feel he should have one as i feel it would be too radical of a change.
cl st Hp: Frame data allows for interesting high damage combos that fail due to spacing.
Also, would give a nice normal to try to meaty into a combo or tick throw setup.
Ultra 1: Currently, T.hawk and his opponent recover at the same time and he is reset to a neutral position. Zangief’s U1 gives him time to walk up to the opponent.
Hawk should at least be able to get closer. Instead he is at around Fierce Spire range but seemingly at 0 frame advantage.
far st Hp: still one of the slower recovering normal moves in the game, but no longer as risky as a fireball on whiff
Thrust Peak: It should never be punishable on hit (except maybe by grab Ultras). [/details]
Would you agree with this ? anything broken/ too strong ?
For the most part I think that is an incredibly solid list, I’m glad that these reasonable changes were apparently the ones which received most of the attention, It seems that capcom will have no excuse this time to unwittingly change T.hawk in an unsatisfactory manner.
I love the changes suggestions to all the condor spires!
I would personally have liked to take the armor breaking properties away from medium spire and instead place them onto fierce. Seeing as fierce has more range and is more unsafe on block it seems to be the more logical choice.
As for SPD, the damage buff had good intentions as I imagine the people asking for that pointed out how the fact that it does less damage than most other command grabs. However seeing as how large of a reward T.hawk gets from this I think it would be vastly more advantageous to give the grab more range!
1.5 is strong for a character like Honda who has decent walking speed and a far roundhouse to discourage walking back but not for T.Hawk. His dash and walk speed are poor and a grab with a range like his almost begs the question as to whether or not randomly dashing foward with surprises grabs is intended to be a standard strategy.
1.55 to 1.65 (the latter being possibly over the top) ought to be reasonable enough
Seeing as how T.hawk may finally be able to string 3 jabs together against a cornered opponent and STILL have the threat of a command grab I’d say that’s buffed enough.
And if close MP were to gain 10 more points of damage, I’d say that the command grab is fine at 150 where it is now, that way a command grab + a cross up combo will add up to= 468, very satisfying indeed!
I love the attention to T.Hawk normals
Asking for improvements to his cr.mk and far hp really points out how T.Hawk players want to strongly emphasize T.Hawk’s footsie potential and are not asking to better his surprise gimmick ability, a step in the right direction! very glad to see this!
oh yes, and Ultra II being changed to Kick!
Cheers to that for one for sure!
Regarding the L Spd range - I was ok with it, but when I checked the ranges of Hawk’s Typhoon and zangief’s spd, I noticed that, while gief’s L spd has much bigger range, his H Spd has smaller range (1.35 compared to 1.40 H Typhoon), same for Ex (1.35 to 1.49).
But, I don’t know, maybe remove the dmg buffs and increase L Mex typhoon range to 1.55 ?
-do not change his ultra 2 to kicks, then he loses a powerful option select of two jabs, which most players just dont know about or utilise.
-remove some frames on recovery time for condor dive land.allows for much more setups off grabs.
-+1 hit advantage off crouch light kick, almost impossible to combo into jabs after because of pushback distance.
standing heavy kick to hit crouching opponents
increase health by a hundred, he really has to take some of the most risks for any charachter in this game, and lets put it in perspective hes got a fireballs difference from sagat for being in the same health, does that seem fair.
-give crouch medium punch a hitbox with arm behind, this can be used then for certain anti-air situations.
if ultra II were to be switched to kicks
doing the option select would make T.hawk do cl jab cl/lk
he would still be able to command grab and be able to oki against the opponent’s escape optoins (most of them)
the only thing lost would be a two jab hit confirm into light dp which iirc doesn’t work on every character and is sometimes standing/crouching specific…
by changing ultra II to kicks, he still keeps his option select and maintains most if not all of his upclose spd/pressure game while only forsaking a combo that’s seldom used anyway.
Futhermore, if he were changed to kicks, doing the ultra on reaction could serve as a mini self correcting optoin select. If the opponent is in the corner and neutral jumps and you mess up the input for ultra, his far roundhouse will come out and may hit the opponent as they come down anyway; even if this scenario doesn’t work, at least we won’t waste meter by unintentionally doing an ex dp/spire/spd.
less recovery off of dive for more set-ups off of grabs? would you say a little more about that one? I’m afraid I don’t quite follow.
health: fireball amount of health more than sagat!
are you asking for a buff in health to help out with a certain match-up?
If so then you’d be well advised to take that buff and consider how it would affect other match-ups. One fireball different from Sagat maybe but giving him an extra 100 would
give him 2 roundhouses and a jab or two from Adon,
a full back+hp xx mp yoga flame + Back Roundhouse anti-airfrom Dhalsim
and more than a full super from Akuma.
Now i’m not trying to say that T hawk would be too good in those matches or anything, all I’m trying to say is that It’s probably not a good idea to argue from one match-up without considering the rest of the cast.
what i would say about the ultra to kicks, is that you have to try it. as is, is a very particular timing that would become even harder with transfering to kicks.plus more importantly close light kick many times whiffs not making contact with opponent, in o/s mode that means ultra comes out which defeats the point of the o/s as it is to jab safely if they stay landed os if they jump.
i see what your saying about the sagat matchup but then i feel sagat should have his health reduced by a 50, i dont feel this will be done but i think it should be done.
-to add another buff i remembered was to make jump forward jab come out in 3 frames, this turns out to be one of t-hawk safest methods to pursue a back jump as you can snap into condor dive from jab, landing before them for a mixup. i would like it come in 3 frames.
about condor dive reduced landing frames, especially off heavy spd, the timing of condor dive in front of them is so strict to have the advantage, i would like just a few more frames to be more comfortable once landed to set up things. i personally would love no height restriction on it either, which i dont see the problem because it is nothing like other charachters foot dives
heres another idea ive been thinkin that i would be sweet godly, is remove all the active frames past 3 for thrust peak and make it same recovery frames as far jab 7 or 8 seems fair, i dont understand the long recovery frames, why this choice capcom. i wish we could still put in ideas to capcom, theres so many that u think of later
So, Combofiend suggested a cancellable c.MK. Am I the only one that thinks this sounds pretty darn powerful? You can link into it, it has a lot of forward movement, and it’s a decent poke. You’ll be able to end combos with c.MK xx EX Spire, maybe even LP Tomahawk if the forward movement is great enough. It’ll really help you get some extra hit-confirmed damage, and maybe it will allow you to do some really heave damage off of cl.HP. Any thoughts?
Cancellable cr.mk will never happen imo cause it would be to op. It’s already one of the best normals in the game. I’m sorry but Combofiend had a lot of stupid suggestions to be honest. Did you see the Gief changes he wanted? They were flat out retarded.
Give Hawk better walk speed, better dp startup, make spires more safe on hit, ex dive more safe on block, and maybe change u2 motion and I’d be happy.
Did you guys see the video? So far Hawk’s getting faster walk speed, improved u2, cr.mk is special cancelable, and he can fadc his dp. At least his ex.dp from the video. Very pleasantly surprised so far at his changes.