T.Hawk 2013

Well guys
It’s official, as of Today, it was made public that Ono announced at PAX East that Capcom will be releasing an Update to AE!

Now before we get our hopes too high let’s be honest here!
There’s no telling as to how big or how relevant this update will be!
We might see something as relevant as NEW characters added to the roster or the udpate could very well turn out to be nothing more than more stages and maybe some costumes!

Hoping for the best, let’s pray that T.Hawk will finally receive some of the long overdue attention that he deserves and revisit the subject of buffs by saying what we want and discussing what may be some good changes to make to Hawk.!

But let’s not stop there!
No doubt, from the aggregate complaining throughout the FGC certain aspects of the game (unblockables) and certain characters will receive some negative attention with nerfs as well. With that in mind let’s also flush out some ideas as to who and how certain characters should receive some nerfs.

And on top of that, what are maybe some improvements we’d like to see for the Game in general?
Everybody’s thoughts an opinions are welcome!

Well for starters as I (And many others) said in the past…

Improved Walking Speed.

holy smokes, there is SOOOO much you can improve on this guy, who is forever found at the bottom of tier lists. simply improving his mobility would help but how about the risk reward ratio is improved a bit. Make condor spire always knockdown so its always safe ON HIT, and thus removing it from the “worst special moves in the game” list. Add juggle properties to normal DP, so we get more damage and rely on bar less. give EX spire extended range to help against fireballs, I’ve grown accustomed to its range after all this time, but it honestly would lessen the frustration is it went as far as say…ex greenhand (only as a point of reference); at least make it go as far hard punch spire. maybe improve the start up frames for spire so its faster than twenty frames. regular might be fifteen and ex could be ten. god forbid we give t.hawk’s horrendously slow ass moves some speed right?

I’m trying to be conservative, as these types of suggestions are the more likely to be considered seriously.

what would make the blanka match-up less horrible? if we could actually punish his attacks, right? because I can’t think of anything that wouldn’t drastically change the character. Is there a way to improve Hawk Dive without making the move unbalanced? if that thing gets blocked, you die, bu if you hit with it, you get…almost nothing. tons of characters can punish even the EX version, which doesn’t even hurt that much and the trajectory is nothing to write home about.

In ST, Blanka is also a bad matchup. It’s just a bad match by design.

One thing that makes that match even possible is his walk speed, because you can chase him down and at least try to corner him.

I think faster walk speed in SF4 would increase the chance of punishing Blanka Ball on recovery by being much closer when he lands.

How can we improve his DP in a balanced manner? what are the properties of his ST DP?

I already suggested his normal DP have juggle properties. that alone would increase its usefulness by a wide margin. since all the dp actually have two hits to them, we would be doing more damage in most circumstances and things like cl.st.Hk. into dp might be worth doing since it doesn’t eat bar. this would also give the development team incentive to up the damage on ex dp, because I believe its among his weakest. I think the intention is “this move cost bar because it acts like a proper DP (its invincible from frame one, and comes out fast, and has juggle properties.)” and because T.hawk is SO STRONG they intentionally made the damage on the move crap to “balance” it, despite is being unsafe and again, costing bar.

so should it be faster? should it have more invincibility on each version? better hitbox? all version’s un-throwable? be FADC-cancel-able? (the fact that he cannot do this already is obscene.)

Edit: his far standing hard kick is -3 on hit. it should be 0, as I’ve heard in certain situation he can be punished for hitting opponents with it. no explanation needed for that change. hardly a controversial change there.

Hey guys i have part of that change list maybe this could help you guys out for a bit. ( I just added what you guys said in this thread to add on to the list.)

  • cr. MK: +10 dmg (80)
  • St.far.Hk (change from -3 on to 0)
  • Condor Spire: - reduce the start up with 2 frames for regular (18) and 1 for Ex (14) (travel a little farther) +1 hitstun (-4/-5/-7) (always causes soft knockdown on hit)
  • Tomahawk B.: reduce the start up with 1 frame (4-5-7-4) (+10 dmg for each version (140-160-170-140) (increase the range so it can combo from a cr.mk)
    -(Make FADCable (Zangief can fadc his lariat so idk why t.hawk should have a move that isn’t fadcable.)
  • Condor Dive: on kd lands closer to the opponent
  • Mexican T.: +10 dmg for L (160) and H (240) versions
  • Ultra 2: +20 dmg (470) (Make it like giefs U2 where you can control where to go except in this case you can choose to catch a back dash or go in the air.)
    -Increase his walk speed to make matches like Blanka somewhat doable.

Here are my suggested changes

  • Better walk speed
    _ cr mk : make the start up 5 frames and -1 on block
    _ cr mp : make the start up 5 frames
  • Tomahawk all versions should be 5 frames of start up.
    _ Make jab tomahawk projectile invincible, Keep strong throw invincible, and fierce hit invincible.
  • Make all regular spires 15 frames of start up and ex 10 frames. (Extended hit box might be nice too)
    _ Give him some thing special cancellable from mid range wether its cr mk or st lk.

-Would like slightly better walk speed, or better dash.
-Would be nice if normal Tomahawk Buster juggled off of cl.st.hk & landing EX spires in the corner.
-First hit of sweep should give a longer knockdown to allow splash/safe jumps, instead of getting nothing from it.
-U2 should catch all backdashes.
-Remove some of the self pushback from condor dive on hit, it would be really cool if you just don’t perform the ricochet animation if it lands.
-Maybe a little more horizontal hitbox on mp/hp Tomahawk so it always combos from st.mp, it’s a pain in the ass having to use lp version all the time vs fat chars like rog.

Hawk needs to build meter faster, he pretty much has to rely on it yet when heavily pressured he has an incredibly hard time building it up. Also, on a purely cosmetic note, I’d like to see his voice almost completely removed and just put in his SF2 grunts…no need to even rerecord them, just reuse them.

at this to the roster:
better anti air with crounching hp like hakan. all of hawks anti air moves needs to be timed precisely. i wanna do it and hit it like akuma’s cr hp.
change spire to kick. i know it will have conflict with u2 so do this because u2 need to change as well: spire is dp K and u2 is 2x qcb kkk or spire is reverse dp k and u2 is 2x qcf kkk
u2 needs to be faster on reaction so this will solve it.
u2 also needs bigger grab box. because some characters can dive beneath it. yun and seth does these things when they are in air and u2 can’t grab it is bullcrap.
give him some juggles and mid buttons fadc.
better hurtbox on far st hk. that air under his leg is troll hurtbox.
i think lp mexican typhoon needs to go at least to 170 damage since giefs does 180.
and give hawk 1200 health and gief also like in vanilla.
100 more health then ryu is just 1 hp and it’s gone health lead.
condor dive may also have less start up frames.
give him faster jumps.
better and faster dash.
faster focus attack.
more range on u1 like lp spd or like super.
his lp and lk moves may do more damage. please 20 damage is way to low for cr lp and a guy this big and not strong.
spd’s needs to have abels tornado throws priority.
we get in with so much effort and they just normal throw us out because it wins against spd’s.
i want vanilla alpha 2 zangief’s spd. grab it while in block. and grab dp when they do it in front of you while in mid air. now that was fun!
when he got full super and full ultra crap hawk can ressurrect.

just make him uber capcom. ( knowing capcom they just make him uber crap again ).
why bother putting him in the game first place when no one will play with him as he is CRAP!!!..
make some new animations as he dies he craps like in south park. REALLY NEEDED!!!..
let him also crap out of his mouth since he’s mexican we don’t know how he eats.
maybe he eats with his ASS and CRAPS out of his mouth like in south park.

by the way his name is not thunder hawk, it’s troll hawk.

why do we bother with this character?
better delete him out of the game.
got so many frustrations since super sf4 that i quit playing.

-Boost Crouching Medium kick damage to 75 or 80 (up from 70).

T.hawk gets out damaged during footsies to all characters that can 2-in-1 a cancellable low normal into a special (think ryu cr.mk xx Hadoken = 130 damage)
It’s current frame data (-2 on block/+1 on hit) combined with its startup of 6 frames practically bars you from hitting a button again at poke ranges knowing you’ll get beat out)
Increasing the damage would preserve the flow of his overall game while somewhat increasing his damage.
I’m leaning more towards 75 because the idea of cr.mk counter hitting for 100 disgusts me.

  • Boost Close medium punch damage to 80.

Close medium punch is the go to normal for t.hawk for anti-air and combos. the nerf to its damage from Super to AE wasn’t really justified.
Giving him a slight increase to damage would be tremendous as T.hawk has this false reputation of doing massive damage.
His body splash mixups (Splash > Cl.MP > DP) = 284 lp dp/300 mp dp/308 FP DP are his primary source of damage.
In any match where he cannot make those count, his damage becomes incredibly gimped (120 here/low 200 there) as he has no far cancellable normal that combos.

-Reduce pushback on close standing Fierce Punch
Frame data allows for interesting high damage combos that fail due to spacing.
Also, would give a nice normal to try to meaty into a combo or tick throw setup.
*Grant New properties to Condor Spires

-Decrease startup on all Normal spires by 3 frames (17f down from 20f)
They start up far too slow to be threatening as most players will hit you out of it on reaction.

-Light Spire gains projectile invincibility from frame 8 until recovery. (about a 18 frame window if they are 17f startup)

T.hawk cannot safely build meter on any character with a fireball at all.
Stark contrast with Zangief who can build meter by whiffing lariats all day.
Giving him an option to slowly/barely advance while building meter would be a godsend.
Making invincibility start late prevents t.hawk from abusing it to get in as he will have to do it early to go through.

-Medium spire gains armor breaking property

After a block string ending with far light kick, T.hawk is only really capable of cancelling into Condor Spire to get back in threat range.
When t.hawk is without meter, opposing players will most likely focus attack to absorb and then punish the spire since he has no option presenting sizable risk.
Giving him a natural armor breaking move will create some form of mixup to allow him an opportunity back in.
In exchange, the degree of risk on this move needs to be increased. Currently at worst MP Spire is (-8 on block/-6 on hit).
In order to preserve the sense of balance, MP Spire should be adjusted to (-12 on block/-6 on hit)
However the logistics get twisted I want the block string cr.lp x2 + far st.lp + far.lk cancelled into MP spire to be -6 at that spacing.

-EX Spire Range increased to match Fierce Spire

To close distance safely, EX spire doesn’t go far enough and Fierce is too slow in terms of speed.
EX spire should be the Alpha and Omega of spires combining range, safety, speed, and utility.

-Either Remove DP shortcut or change Spire input to DP motion + Kicks
It’s absolutely absurd that there exists a chance that EX DP will come out while trying to walk forward and reacting to fireballs.
Either make it so that inputting a backwards input and punches Nullifies the DP shortcut/give less input priority to DP.
OR Completely change its input to Kicks.

-Condor Dive on hit needs more advantage on hit.

Condor Dive’s Risk/Reward ratio is heavily skewed. Most of the time he only lands the 120 damage and is forced to play neutral game again.
This is not justified for a move that gets punished with ultras on block.

-EX DP into EX Dive NEEDS to provide better positioning mid screen.

Currently, EX DP into EX Dive costs 2 meter and does 230 damage/350 stun which is all good and dandy save for the fact he knocks them back FULL SCREEN unless they are cornered.
This is terrible in comparison to the plethora of highly invincible DP’s that FADC into -1 and -2 and lead to pressure or ultra on hit.
Hawk should either land next to the opponent, not bounce back as far, or knock the opponent straight down into a TKD. (Better yet, why not have him cleave through the opponent and land)

-Fierce Tomahawk buster starts up in 7f instead of 8f.

Currently, it gets counter hit a little too often. Making it faster should help it a little bit.

-Increase Light SPD range to 1.55 or 1.6 units.

Do not want to match the ridiculousness of Zangief, but 1.5 is the same as honda and T.hawk is too reliant on it to start his mixup.
He gets footsied out of his current range too easily. Hell, 3 crouching lp on block or hit pushes t.hawk out of his own spd range and at that point what does the opponent fear?

-Ultra 2 Needs slightly more horizontal range

When t.hawk has some characters in the corner he often falls into this dead space of not being able to ultra 2 them for neutral jumping if they don’t hit a button.
However if they do it will work. It should get slightly more horizontal range to guarantee it’s success in the corner as well as for people jumping away from him.

-Ultra 2 needs input change to down back x2 + KKK OR Half Circle Back x2 + KKK

Too many of his move inputs overlap each other with the slightest execution error. By differentiating to kicks, only the moves you want to come out will be able to come out with ZERO chance of accidentally getting the wrong move.

-Ultra 1 Needs to give T.hawk more time after the knockdown

Currently, T.hawk and his opponent recover at the same time and he is reset to a neutral position. Zangief’s U1 gives him time to walk up to the opponent.
Hawk should at least be able to get closer. Instead he is at around Fierce Spire range but seemingly at 0 frame advantage.

Crapshoot but I’ll ask anyway: Slightly better walk speed, he’s a little reliant on footsies and it gets hampered by his big frame and slow movement.

At last!
The T.Hawk players are beginning to rise from their slumber!

Great suggestions from Onions.
Let’s keep going guys
Let’s iron out everything we got and get our ideas ready for posting over @ capcom-unity

I’m just going to copy-paste what I wrote at Capcom unity here.

So I’ve been a fan of T. Hawk since AE.

In 2012 I thought some of the changes he recieved were questionable.

I wasn’t sure what the point of the juggle state of close standing roundhouse was good for when I saw it, and I’m still not entirely sure what the thought process there was.

Making Tomahawk buster’s medium punch version unthrowable on startup felt like something that should have been standard for all tomohawk busters from the beginning.

What I’m trying to say is that I hope the changes for T. Hawk this time around are more beneficial to his game, build upon what he has that makes him good, and puts him in a place where you don’t lose at character select when you choose to play him. What I’m looking for is for Capcom to bring this character up to speed so he can catch up with the rest of the cast.

Some of the changes I suggest may be too much, I often go back and forth in my head about them, but I figure I’ll just post them all anyway.

=Condor Spire=

Would it bee too good if the condor spires could do any combination of the following?

-Heavy condor spire knocks down on hit.

-Medium condor spire is projectile invincible.

-Light Condor spire starts up faster and is therefore able to be combo’d off of, say, standing medium kick or medium punch?

  • And if any of those suggestions are too good: Make Ex Condor spire travel a little bit farther, that way it’s more useful against fireballs.

The big thing about Condor Spire is that it’s not a move that is good for approaching. It seems to just function as a tool for pressure. If you draw parallels to Zangief’s Green hand, which is comboable and puts them right in their face, then you could understand my frustration with the limited uses of this move.

=Tomahawk Buster=

The big thing that I’m reading from all of these posts, one of the most consistent requests, seems to be the ability to FADC the tomahawk buster.

This would let his reversal (already a weak move when compared to other reversals of it’s kind), have the ability to be safe for 2 meters. He would also be able to Tomahawk Buster -> FADC -> Tomahawk Buster for a little extra damage, much in the same vain as Cammy or Adon.

Being able to Juggle an opponent with an Anti-Air Tomahawk Buster into another Buster would be another change that I would like Capcom to consider. My ideas with the Tomahawk buster are meant to bring T. Hawk to a level where his tools don’t just come up short when compared to other characters in similar situations.

=Ultra 2=

I labor about this ultra. From what I’ve read on the forums and in this thread, a change that people would like to see is the ability to combo into this ultra from multiple different means.

It is my understanding that the reason it currently can’t be combo’d into is because it is considered a throw and not a hit. If capcom were to change this Ultra from a throw to a hit, it would mean that it could be combo’d off of a tomohawk buster, should they decide to make it FADCable, and maybe even his close roundhouse kick.

On the other hand, making it a hit instead of a throw means that it loses utility where being an Anti-Air is concerned.

I think ultimately, the ability to combo reliably into an ultra means more than having an anti air ultra for a character that has a “DP”.

=Condor Dive=

I actually think Condor dive is largely good as it is. If I were to desire any kind of change, it would be this: There’s a sweet spot on the opponent’s body when you attack with the EX version of the condor dive. It’s low, but when you hit it and it’s blocked, instead of flying backwards you land right in front of them.

I would like that window to be enlarged slightly, so that it’s easier to make this happen more often, yet still requires some forethought and aim to nail.


Cl. St. RH.

I’d like to see some kind of an increase in the utility of close Roundhouse. I don’t care if it’s that it becomes more comboable, or if you can nail ultra 2 after it, but I feel that there needs to be more incentive to use this move. As it stands, I think T. Hawk would prefer to combo into standing medium punch into EX Condor Spire or Fierce Tomahawk buster 9 times out of 10.

Cr. Fierce

I want the hit box of this move to be more pronounced above his head to make it a more useful anti air. It’s decent, it just needs to be tweaked for it to be more reliable.

Cl. St. Strong

I’d like T.Hawk to be able to do this move a little farther away than he currently can. I’d like it if the distance that he could get this instead of Far St. Strong was increased to improve his combo potential. Maybe allow St. Jab - St. Jab - St. Strong xx Condor Spire?

Jumping down strong.

There was a suggestion I read earlier where this hit would cause a juggle state similar to Ryu’s jumping medium punch, which would allow him to juggle with a Buster or U2 if the properties were changed. Still not sure if that would be too good for him to have, but I think it’s a neat idea. The move seems to have a lot of priority versus other air normals. Otherwise I think it’s a solid move.

Jumping forward jab.

I’d like to see this move have it’s hit box extended downward slightly, so it can be used as an instant overhead against more crouching characters. I believe the only characters he can nail that on when they’re crouching reliably are Zangief, Sagat and himself? I could be wrong, but I think that would be neat to give him as an option on an opponent’s wake up.

Lastly, his crouching Medium kick is a good move. I’d just like him to be able to do more with it, maybe have it move forward slightly, or be special cancelable.

And as an aside, is there a reason that any of his normals are super cancelable? It’s not like it gets in the way or anything, it’s just not very useful for anything to my knowledge.

That’s all I can really think of, I know that he’s not going to get everything we want, and in all honesty, a lot of this stuff might be wishful thinking. But I decided I would just post everything that I could possibly want for him, and see where Capcom takes him.

That was all I could think of at the time. Hope I did my desire for this character to be better justice.

I’m gonna past what I wrote on capcom unity (pg 6)

Let me know what you guys think… There’s a ton of garbage being posted on all characters’ threads.
I hope my thoughts are more reasonable.

Slightly widen the hitbox for fierce DP so that splash, cl.strong xx fierce dp combos on everyone. It’s his meterless bnb that nets barely more than 300 off of a jump in.

When you need to step down to a lower strength, not only do you lose damage, but more importantly, you lose positioning. I think this is more of a fix than an outright buff, considering that it’s currently character-inconsistent.

Decrease the pushback on cl.strong. This would make cl.strong, cl.strong, cr.forward, a consistent option for meterless damage that pushes hawk out to the neutral game, or cl.strongx2 xx ex.spire for a strong hit-confirm with good damage and positioning at the cost of one meter.

I feel that hawk lacks good hitconfirms. All he really has are links for mediocre damage and poor positioning. Considering he relies on meter to get past projectiles or have an invincible reversal, trading one bar for a good combo seems fairly balanced. Also, landing a pointblank cl.strong on a grounded opponent isn’t the easiest thing to do.

Change the input for spire to dp+kick, and if not too powerful, u2 input to qcfx2+PPP.
Ex.spire is Hawk’s only real way of getting past projectiles, considering his jump is so floaty. It can be quite difficult to walk forward and ex.spire on reaction, especially with the punch inputs overlapping with dp and spd. With ex.spire having less range than fierce spire, an easier input wouldn’t make for an overpowered move. While it’s safer on hit/block than gief’s ex.hand, it doesn’t have the same quick startup.

Again, I think changing the inputs for a move are more of a fix than a buff.

In regards to u2, the hcb motion is incredibly difficult, especially for an ultra that’s pretty much restricted to being a reactionary anti-air. Jumping in on hawk with u2 should be like jumping in on ryu with u2.

Or if it’s not going to work reliably as an anti-air, widen the hitbox so that it works consistently as a jump-in OS vs backdash on wakeup. As it stands currently, U2 is hard to utilize and often ignored for U1’s damage and threat factor.

Allow ex.spire to combo from cr.jab and/or far jab. -edit: Maybe far st.short, or a normal that can’t be linked into?
Either increase the hitstun on his jabs by a touch or lower the start-up on ex.spire?

Hawk is a footsie based grappler, but he’s pretty free on the ground to characters like chun, vega, bison, etc. to the point where they can mindlessly throw out st.strong, st.roundhouse and completely shut him down.
This would give him a tool, again, reliant on meter, to compete with such dominant pokes. Most of hawk’s other pokes are either lacking in speed or priority, and his slow walkspeed make his footsies rather ineffective.

When characters only have to worry about a measly 30/40 damage jab, they can go auto-pilot with their pokes and beat hawk on the ground.

The threat of a jab OS ex.spire would encourage opponents to actually think about the pokes their using, instead of nerfing them, and force an actual footsie game with hawk. It would work similar to Sakura’s cr.foward OS dp, except that it would rely on meter.

**Potential issue might be that his new bnb would be cr.jab, st.jab, st.jab xx ex spire. **
Cr.jab only chains into st.jab, but st.jab has enough range/frame advantage to easily link into itself, allowing for the special cancel into ex.spire.
This could be too strong, hit confirming damage+knockdown off any errant cr.jab.
I still think hawk needs an OS tool to get in like gief’s st.short OS ex.hand. It would also help him get in on Blanka after jabbing a random blanka ball.

Possible buffs:

Lower hurtbox on cr.forward akin to Akuma or Chun’s cr.strong, giving him the option to anti-air with cr.forward xx ex.spd/U1.
Would be neat, possibly overpowered. He can still do it against poorly spaced/less dominant jump ins.

[b/]Shrink/Narrow the hitbox on cr.short**.
Cr.short doesn’t seem to serve much purpose on its own. It has the same frame data as cr.jab, with 10 more damage at the cost of not being able to chain into itself.
It’s a 4-frame crouch tech, that’s about it.

Currently, I use it to buffer 720 motions for walking super/U1. While it’s current range is slighly less than super/u1, allowing it to work as a buffer, shrinking the hitbox would make it a bit easier to avoid accidentally hitting your opponent.

Decrease the range on jab spire.
This would improve his mixup game off of blockstrings, allowing him to frametrap with far st.jab xx fierce/med/ex spire or whiff the jab spire to go for the command grab/dp/ultra.

Jab xx spire isn’t a true blockstring, so it loses to reversals. Jab xx jab.spire would leave hawk at frame disadvantage, meaning that whiff.spire > grab would lose to reversals/attacks, beat blocking, and reset vs jump back/back dash. A proper rock/paper/scissors scenario.

I don’t know if it would make his mixup game of block jabs too strong…

Give jab.dp pursuit property. Corner only follow-up to cl.st. roundhouse, late-hitting ex.spire.
Allowing for meterless damage after a cl.st.roundhouse or well spaced ex.spire would make hawk’s corner game truly terrifying. Hawk has to work so hard to get in. Being cornered by him should put you in a terrible situation.

Also, perhaps early anti-air jab dp xx jab dp could give better damage at the risk of trading due to the weaker hitbox. Would be a nice punish for anticipating a close range neutral-jump mid-screen.

Overall, I think most of these changes would give Hawk what he needs to be viable without changing his core.
He would still be a footsie based grappler, very reliant on meter, with a weak wakeup game and a mix-up game not as dominant as gief’s and a weak wakeup game overall.

-He would use the same combos as he does now, but they would work consistently against the cast.
-He still needs meter/u2 for a reliable anti air, meter to get around projectiles.
-He would have an poke OS threat to make playing footsies with him more thought-oriented.
-He would be able to mix up and continue pressure a bit better than he can now, which he needs considering how hard he has to work to get in.
-Needs to block/tech on wakeup without meter, gamble on ex.spd/ex.dp

If the input is made easier on his U2, it should NOT be buffed to combo after cl.roundhouse/ex.spire/dp FADC (if buffed). It should either be a reliable utility ultra, OR a combo ultra. Only combo should be after focus crumple (because it’s fun, and Hawk’s focus attack is pretty terrible already).

You idiots are turning T.Hawk into Seth!

You want him to be able to Cancel his Dp and enter into a Dp/Spd Mix up!
You want him to be able to to Dp Cancel Ultra II
you want him to be able to do Dive from far away and have it safe all the time!

Good thing you guys are REALLY retarded and not just kinda retarded
otherwise these loony suggestions might of had a CHANCE of being slightly HUMORED in the next update.

Thanks for possibly taking the ban for me, now I don’t have to say this in a rude manner anymore (I wanted to) but I want to say I am with you. The problem with these community things is that guys who don’t have the slightest bit of knowledge and just started playing (!) feel the need to make balance suggestions and the biggest problem is some people aren’t even reviewing what they suggest.

What Onions said sounds good, though.

You don’t have to be rude about it.

Like really, you really don’t.

But now that you mention it, the TB FADC mix up DOES sound a little too strong.

Is there any way it can still work out without that being a problem, or is that just too good?

I just wanted say this list of your onions, is quite good. I don’t even feel like posting on the site, since this pretty much covers everything I would have wanted.

Unrelated, why is it outrageous for T.hawk to have a setup like like DP-FADC 50/50 mix up? why would that be considered outlandish? He has to be in your face to do something like that, the damage is not guaranteed, and you can even hit him out of his DP provided he doesn’t spend bar for it (3 bars there, for a character that is very reliant on it). T.hawk can’t have good tools.

I think most of the community T hawk players who are suggesting Dp fadc Ultra II are focusing clearly on the ‘comboability’ and aren’t paying enough attention to how it would fully evolve and what it would mean for the game!

As wombat crudely put it, we have a character already in the roster who possess the specials that can replicate for us the scenario in question but on a much smaller scale: Seth

Have you not seen it done, in fact do you not SEE it done repeatedly, Seth players on occasion to blindly uppercut either during THEIR OWN pressure or while being pressured to FORCE a powerful 50/50?

Albeit Seth’s damage output is on the weaker end of the spectrum with respect to his Dp and SPD (150) I think you can see where i’m going with this. Although many of you are suggesting this in the spirit of wanting T hawk to have a Ultra combo option after connecting a body splash or as a punish option, the theoretical implication would be a colossal can of worms would without a doubt lead players to abuse it!

I know I would!

Maybe it would be easier to see this perspective if we instead theory craft about Zangief for a moment.
Could we imagine a scenario where Ex Green had was not only 100% invincible (which it is iirc) but it’s hitstun would be so that a FADC dash forward would put Zangief at worst -1/-2 on block?

There would no doubt be an uprising in the FGC

EX Green hand would not only become a desperation move to use on wake up to escape pressure, it would become a TOOL in itself in the neutral game, (in any part of the game really) to FORCE a POWERFUL 50/50s! Just like Seth!

Now let’s take this scenario and Imagine again for a second, Mr. Aquasilk AKA Mr. Russian Skies himself got a hold of such a buff!

Ex Green Hand FADC
Hit a button, try to throw = Losses to SPD which deals good damage and leads to MORE mix up
Try to Reversal DP, try to Back dash, Try to Jump= Loses to Ultra II, heavy Damage and MORE mix up!

Like I said, I can understand where you guys are coming from and I understand you guys want the best for T.Hawk but rest assured this piece of BUFF is a COLOSSAL CAN OF WORMS which would introduce mind numbing, cringe inducing very scary, very dumb 50/50s which imo and i think in the opinion of most people that play and love this game, DOES NOT BELONG. I think we shoud turn away from GIANT coin flips and instead move T.hawk (most characters I think and in turn the entire game) to have the tools necessary to perform well by playing SOLID and by fundamentals!

50/50s or READS as they can also be called, DO have a place in this game but their presence for the most part, shouldn’t supersede or take a dominating presence over solid play, even in T.hawks case.

But don’t get me wrong either, I do care for T.hawk like you and do want to see him buffed
Onions list is fantastic and I think taking his suggestion of possibly changing the input to Kicks while giving it more range would go A LONG way in helping Hawk.