moving on
there’s something else regarding Thawk buffs that on my mind which I’d like feedback from you guys.
I don’t think it was said in Onion’s list nor has it been said very often at unity but should T.hawk get a slight damage buff to his command grab? his light spd in particular.
As it stands right now, the grab has less range than Honda while only doing 150 damage (which is less than Honda :()
I for one would like to see it do more despite the fact that it may see a range extention in this next update. I think that the inherit nature of being not only a grappler but the type with a 360 motion (yes I see Abel and Makoto as grapplers) warrents them having the most damage or at least have it tied for the lowest.
Both Abel and Honda’s lp command grabs do 160 so putting Hawk on par with them or perhaps putting him at 165 or 170 wouldn’t be crossing any ‘fairness’ line!
Humor this idea at this point and now consider the next change.
I’ve heard it said quite a number of times at this point that it would be nice for Hawk to gain the ability to combo 2 close Medium punches into his uppercut AFTER a body splash.
Now, if we were to take Onion’s suggestion of buffing Hawk’s close medium punch slightly to 80 points, the grand outcome would give some frighteing numbers!:
Command Grab: 100% 160
Body Splash: 100% 110
Close mp: 100% 80
close mp: 80% 64
hp dp: 70% 112
or
lp dp: 70% 91
Grand Total: 160 + 345 ~ 366 = 505 - 526!!!
It would mean that the Reward for one command grab and a correct cross up would yeild MORE DAMAGE than his ULTRA I
and what’s more, is that he would only need to connect this TWICE to WIN!
Safe to say… incredibly strong, too strong!
In light of a range and damage buff to his SPD
I think a more rational and deserving buff would be to to extend the lower hitbox of Hawk’s uppercut to make it always connect on every opponent.
Change the condor spire motion from rdp + p to dp + k (it is hard to walk forward and react with spire as it stands now, often, due to the input leniency on dp’s a tomahawk buster comes out instead.)
walk speed up to par with zangief (this will help at least a little with the blanka match up, we could chase him down better since we can’t punish anyways…)
make spire startup faster for each version, make lp version safe on hit or make all versions soft knockdown. (Free punish on everything hawk does, should have one safe move)
invincibility frames on lp tomahawk buster, faster startup on all versions of one frame (no need to be able to fadc, it’s good enough he gets a dp)
st. HK, either give it faster startup or make it a bit safer on block (-3 maybe?)
st. HP, make it soft knockdown an airborne opponent, bring dmg down from 120 to 110 (Give us a reason to throw this out there other than the damage, will catch people jumping away… I use st mp on every situation right now)
cr. mp, add a hitbox to the arm behind, no reason not to have it.
cr. hp, enlarge the hitbox slightly upward. (This is his anti air normal, it’s already slow to start and trades with pretty much anything)
cr. Lk, make it +4 on hit to make the link into c.lp easier to handle (unplinkable without stick modding)
cr. hk, make the dmg on second hit be 90. (Hawk gets nothing from a first hit kd, 50 is too weak)
Mexican typhoons, increase range to match gief, do not increase the dmg however as it would make it too strong
dive (don’t listen to the people who want ex to land next to opponent, this would be broken, and we can already achieve this if we hit the right spot)
ultra 2, have hitbox catch crossups or right above (we are free hawk for vortex if they know how this ultra works) 2x qcf would help, but not necessary) basically I’d rather it worked like gief ultra 2, even if that requires the same motion.
i believe these changes could make t hawk competitive without being broken, grapplers are really hard to balance.
if you pick only one thing from my list, please let it be spires becoming dp + k!
If it were up to me, Hp spire would have both armor breaking and yield a techable knock down similar to Ex Spire but still maintain it’s frame disadvantage on block.
It would looses the tight reliance of Ex Spire for all of Hawk’s post chain pressure
which would free up a little meter usage.
it would virtually fix the problem of spire’s being punishable on hit.
Light for meter build
Fierce for anti back dash/ armor
Ex for combo / pressure
eh, slight correction, you can throw geif out of ex greenhand. as far as I know, he has no move which is throw invincible besides his ultra 2.
Regarding the dp-FADC 50/50 mix up; I understand the point your making. It’s just that characters have that ability to force that nasty 50/50 game already, considering how bad hawk is, he could use it. Top teirs could manage with it no problem, but I can see it becoming an issue with other characters who have less escape options.
leave trash hawk alone.
he’s way too strong already and needs to be nerfed in all ways.
all other characters got hp nerfed to 250.
so 1 spd and a jab is enough to kill them.
Hey man if people were nice all the time like you, dumb suggestions would never get the criticism they DESERVE.
But w/e, haters gonna hate.
What game are you playing???
Ya, fei long and ryu and the like can set up ‘decent’ 50/50 game after a cancelled dp, but ‘NASTY’ is exaggerated.
Let me reiterate what that layton guy said for you again:
DP… cancel. DERP
Are you sitting there? not moving? gonna try to hit a button?
BUTTER!
now i get a cross up combo
Oh are you scared?
gonna dp? back dash? neutral jump?
well i happen to have this PULSATING PURPLE ULTRA II sitting here
why don’t i just go ahead and throw this out!
you’re gonna hold this 400 damage real quick and prepare for some more pressure afterwards.
If you can see this mix-up and be OK with it
than you’re …
If t.hawk has ultra 2, don’t jump. U2 catching characters on back dashes is shoddy outside of corners.a player cannot input that move on reaction, if that move misses T.hawk is dead, just like he is when he whiff pretty much anything. He’s not going to hit you with a super, that’s for sure. if he doesn’t have U2, then jump, or backdash, there’s not a lot he can do to you when your in the air damage-wise. So he gets a set up that has a high chance of giving him damage, when he’s in your face, and requires a ton of bar, and if he messes up, you can blow him up. not to mention with his AMAZING dash, he will be…what? -3 at most off a blacked DP-FADC? ryu has an average dash and he’s -1 I believe.
what it will do is give him the ability to keep on the pressure. He’s got to work his ass off to get next to a character, he deserves something help him land damage provided he has bar.
But whatever, I concede this has little chance of happening anyway and I can understand it being too volatile. I’d prefer him getting substantial buff instead of becoming a one trick pony.
Shobby, no it’s not, If you input ultra II next to someone who is backdashing it’ll catch them
you’re damn right you can’t react to a back dash, that’s why it’s a 50/50!
The amount of hitstun a dp does is arbitrary,
If Hawk was -3 or something like that then it would defeat the whole purpose of the buff, he wouldn’t be able to do anything other than throw after the cancel otherwise he’d get thrown.
So what’s the point of the dp cancel?
to make it safe?
First of all, his normal DPS don’t have any invincibility on start up ANYWAY so if you’re going to wake up with a DP out of fear i’d imagine you’d choose EX. Given that, WHY would you want to spend 2 MORE bars in cancelling it if you don’t want some kind of scrubby 50/50 set up after wards. HE CAN ALREADY CANCEL INTO EX DIVE AFTERWARDS, and it’s pretty damn safe if you ask me!
honestly, T.hawk players THEMSELVES need a buff
you guys need to practice using the fear of SPD range and spooking people into jumping and punishing with it
maybe try asking for an easier input to ultra II or something but you all should get your act together and practice.
k…
so you’re solution is to give him MORE reward for when he finally does get in… with dumb 50/50s… genius!
How about this… how about buffing him in a way where he DOESN’T HAVE TO WORK HIS ASS OF TO GET IN
I don’t know… a better dash, better range on spd, better walk speed, better spires
Just throwing ideas at you.
Buff hawk in a way that makes sense, don’t give him some crutch to abuse.
moving forward from the subject of cancellable uppercuts
Let’s talk a little more about condor dive!
As onions pointed out
the Risk reward is heavily skewed
Dives alter Hawk’s jump to ‘whiff punish’ grounded anti-air attempts
they can be done relatively low in the air to counter predictable hadoukens
But they are horrendous on block
most of the cast can raw ultra punish
it does only 120 damage and the ‘techable’ knock down along with it’s relatively lack luster positioning after it hits doesn’t give T.hawk great follow up potential.
If dive is to remain as bad on block as it is then I say that it deserves a good buff to compensate.
At the spacing which T.Hawk lands after a connected dive, an untechable knock down would give the time necessary to perform a 50/50 body splash EXACTLY as powerful as after a light SPD.
Seeing as this may be too powerful I suggest that it would be fair to first of all grant dive more damage, 130-140 and simply make T.hawk fall to the floor faster after connecting. The over all time given off should make the knockdown resemble Ex SPIRE in that Hawk would be able to jump forward safely but not enough time to move about and position for an ambiguous set up. The ideal post dive connection maneuver ought to be a forward dash in which T.hawk would have significant frame advantage as the opponent rises!
Risk = Full combo punish/ Raw Ultra
Reward = Guaranteed pressure…
I think that Ex dive is a slightly more unique case that deserves it’s own attention.
I believe it’s slightly faster
150 damage
can be executed from a backjump
at a certain angle it can not bounce back, but simply land at the opponents feet at which point Hawk is at a slight frame advantage.
the spacing on block is much farther away making it less vulnerable to many punish options
it is still unsafe and there are still a great number of great counters possible from many characters
the positioning on hit is WORSE than regular dive.
a reasonable change to this move I think would be to maintain it’s distance on block but to make the positioning on hit exactly what the regular condor dive onhit is NOW which should include both spacing and the duration it takes for Thawk to land on the floor. He should be roughly 1 dash away from the tip of light SPD range but the time alotted to him ought to be that the rising opponent should be up and ready to counter by the time the dash is complete as to weaken his offensive options.
trash hawk overpowered with these suggestions? i don’t think so.
just give him all we suggest.
as he stands now, he’s bottom tier and can’t do shit to other characters.
let him at least do something?
give him a bazooka like nemesis in resident evil.
let him attack with his eagle as projectile.
he flies into the fight so why not give him flight like magneto.
these things will balance it out
I’ve been playing Hawk since day one for 3D Edition (I use Pro Mode as to avoid the Guile/Blanka/Honda chargeless spammers) and though v2012 is very different from it, the problems I see with Hawk are still plain to see in v2012, with only EX CD being being the only major improvement in between that time. I do however see a huge upgrade should Capcom upgrade his Tomahawk.
The LP version should stay as a quick 1 hit DP that causes a juggle, and all versions should have their hit boxes extended slightly. However, I also hope to see both the MP and HP versions become 2 hit specials. Both hits should cause a juggle state as well as allowing FADC only on the first hit on the MP, HP, and EX versions. This change alone I believe will make Hawk a mid-tier character at best, but it’s a lot better than only outclassing Oni and Dan.
Another thing I hope to see redone is the properties for Ultra 2 to change to where it can hit juggled opponents after a cl.HK or a first hit FADC MP/HP Tomahawk (given the above changes). The trade-off however is the execution. However, because ONLY the first hit of Tomahawk would be FADC-able and will allow for more combos such as Body Press > MP > MP Tomahawk > FADC xx Raging Slash, the execution needed to continue a combo after a MP/HP/EX Tomahawk would be so precise, I see it as an even trade.
People STILL care about points nowadays?
nvm me mr online warrior… with this t.hawk portion of the rebalance thread closed, I am officially done with this sub-forum
stay free all of you!
