Do you guys think maybe it would be fair to keep command throws the same in ultra? It seems to me that the knock down from command throw was never the unfair thing in AE2012
Yes, I always hoped they’d removed DWU from command throws. Non-grapplers with HKD command throws usually have a hard time landing them, so that would be a nice reward for them as well (Akuma’s/Gouken’s Demon Flip grabs and Guy’s Bushin (Kaiten) Izuna Otoshi for example).
It would be wonderful but It seems people are willing to screw over grapplers as long as Akuma,Ibuki,and cammy mix ups get nerfed
I just keep thinking about delayed wake up and it sucks the fun/competitiveness out of playing Hawk. I realise he’s getting better stuff for the neutral game but ruining one of his most powerful tools is a huge setback nonetheless. And this character can’t really afford any steps backwards.
As a player without access I hope someone at these loc tests who agrees can push this idea in Combofiend’s direction. Please keep command throws the same, they cannot be combo’d into which means you’re always running a risk when going for them and you should be rewarded for landing it.
I think it might be too late to change anything since the game comes out in japan in a few weeks
Quite sure they’ll want some feedback on the final character before finalizing the game.
Yeah,that makes sense lol. If anyone is going to the next loc test push for the removal of the L.SPD range buff for a damage buff on M.SPD.
Well if the delayed wake up remains of Typhoon I guess Hawk has to become even more footsie based. Mind you I’m not too upset with that because a special cancel able crouching medium kick and better walk speed are great additional tools however these still pale to the likes of other characters.
The safe jump tech DaftMarC has been posting will be very important for forcing delayed wake up imo, at the same time though opponents could just backdash/teleport and the latter cannot be properly option selected (Maybe os jump Dive?). It seems like a nightmare compared to what other characters have do to get damage.
At the moment there is a pc mod with the current changes for all characters including universal red focus and dwu timing. I wish I had a reliable pc because I would be most interested to work on dwu set up options, I’ve tested Red focus on my friend’s version and it gives Hawk nothing outside of footsies while it gives every other character I play a 3 meter combo into Ultra. Which leads me to another suggestion, albeit a late one - allow Hawk (and in fact any other character) to combo level 1 focus from a normal. Yes it’s bigger damage than average but Hawk has a hard time hitting anyway.
Anyway, the forum was a little dead, wanted to spark a bit conversation and convey my concerns. If I was a pure Hawk main I’d prolly be over the moon for him.
I agree with DWU Hawk is gonna be more footsie based but he also gonna lose option selects and set ups that deter characters from using reversals on wake up,backdashing,and jumping.He is turning into a high risk- low reward character and he will be too much of a hassle.
In my opinion with ES why would anyone stick with Hawk when you could play V-Gief, but if there are people that are gonna stick with Hawk you’re going to be using MP.SPD and double OS’s alot more.
I will stick with him through the hard times, I’ve put too much work into him to drop him now but I will most likely using Bison as my main once again and leave Hawk as a Gief counter and other match ups I feel comfortable with.
I put a ton of work into him too but USF4 is something I’m not gonna pick up, I hope some of my tech helps alot of future hawk players.
Yeah DaftMarC, I think it’s been vital to redefine Hawk in Ultra. Every piece of tech you and Doop produce encourages me to use Hawk more and more. Because of you guys (and YouTube) I’ve been able to overcome so many hard battles and beat every player in my scene several times. But in the end there’s only so much you can do with a character before reality checks in and you get bodied by only two different kind of moves.
Thanks Dontdodat, you should read UltraDavid’s character impression article, after reading it i’m really interested in knowing some of the frame data on his TB,CS,and CD.
Has anyone been trying to do the math on OS to setup meaties if someone does delayed wakeup? I was trying to, but I feel like my math might be off, but I’ll post here anyway, if only to get discussion going.
Assuming after LP 360, you perform crossup splash, while at the same time performing a safejump against a reversal, that would involve you hitting the ground 2f after the opponent wakes up, there’s 4f of landing recovery, and that leaves 5f before the opponent will recover from DWU (11f later wakeup). Assuming my math on Hawk’s safejump splash is correct, you could perform a c.LK or c.LP, which have 4f startup and 3f active, which, will yield +1 on block and +4 on hit, since they would hit on the second active frame assuming they’re done as soon as possible, and my math is right. With this frame data, on hit, you can link to a c.LP xx LP DP or LK Spire, assuming they would combo, allowing you to maintain a strong position against their delayed wakeup.
Sorry for the wall of text, also sorry if it’s all wrong, but I just want to see if we can come up with some tech to make DWU less effective against Hawk’s jab 360 setups.
If I do LP SPD, whiff splash, HP TB, it will be counterhit by 3f moves, but the invincibility will kick in before a 4f move connects. whiffing any other air normal will beat 3f reversals, but get counterhit bu 2f supers (Ryu’s super whiffs though, might be because of hitboxes). I don’t know how reliable this way of measuring is though, because Dudley gets hit out of HP DP, but counterhits me with his super, and both are 3 frames, so I dunno. Neutral jump is one or two frames slower, but it’s hard to do any exact testing thanks to the distance. Guile’s MK super CHs nj.HP to HP TB though, while it hits after the invincibility on j.HP to HP TB. This should help you come up with set-ups. From this you should be able to figure out something.
Btw, cl.LP has 11 frames total, so whiffing one after these jumps and then linking the HP TB should have the same effect on DWU that it has now.
Final changes (via SRK):
Thoughts on the new changes? Sounds good but I don’t know if it’ll make bad matchups any better yet
The fact that LK Spire is now a pretty godlike tool more than weighs up for what he lost thanks to DWU and other characters getting buffs if you ask me. Suddenly you have better standing pressure, better meterless damage (because that thing will probably combo from further away than a DP), better damage from long-range punishes (Maybe you can get something other than a jab or a medium in long-range situations that are less than -11), better mobility etc. LP SPD reaching slightly further, better walkspeed, better U2 hitbox, EX Spire reaching further and having a better input, more consistent cl.Mp links etc. are just icing on the cake. The only nerf we got was the thrust peak input change, but I think that will be reverted in the Decapre patch/console version.
The LP.CS buff is cool but did they make his Cl.MP or CR.HP more reliable as an AA? Did they improve his HP.DP?