Swoops' Bob Oki & Safe Jump Thread

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter x Tekken
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Alright Bob fans, I’ve got some treats for whomever is interested. I just recently thought to myself “Y’know, I need to start taking advantage of all these knockdowns I’m getting after these swag Bob combos.” I mean after all, he probably has one of the weirdest and best jumps in the game, combined with a great set of air normals. Great cross-ups, huge reaching kicks, and his neutral jump normals serve to alter his gravity.

So…I just today started to do some investigating. As evidenced by the title, this is going to be veeeerry raw, in-progress data. It’s not that solidified. However, I still want to share my findings as I go along. So here’s what I’m going to do. This first post will be dedicated to the things, safe jumps, option selects and what have you, that have been thoroughly investigated and that I can list with much confidence. The second post will be the rough, in progress page. Like a sketch pad of sorts. After that I encourage everybody to discuss, suggest things, and hopefully come up with great oki of their own.

Let’s get to it!

Safe Jumps/Cross-Ups

**When I refer to a (4/5/6 etc) frame safe jump in this section, I’m referring to your ability to correctly block wake up reversals that start in that amount of frames. For example, if you are performing a 4 frame safe jump on Sagat, when you land you will be able to block a reversal LP tiger uppercut, since its starts up in 4 frames. However, you will not be able to block a reversal EX tiger uppercut, since it starts in 3 frames.

Sweep

[details=Spoiler]sjf.MK

*Hits in front.
*4 frame safe jump[/details]

Front Throw

[details=Spoiler]Set up: Slight step forward, then nj.HK

*4 frame safe jump
*Blocks most 3 frame reversals because of distance

-OR-
**
slight step forward, sjf.MK**

*Hits in back
*Makes most reversals whiff[/details]

Back Throw

[details=Spoiler]Midscreen Set Up: c.LP, sjf.HK (credit to Nos99)

  • 4 frame safe jump

Corner Set Up: c.LK, nj.HK (credit to Nos99)

*4 frame safe jump[/details]

Spiral Rocky (opponent must quick tech)

[details=Spoiler]Set up: Full step forward, crouch down into sjf.MK

*4 frame safe jump
*Looks like cross up, hits in front.

Set up: Whiff st.LK, jf.MK

*Cross up
*Makes most reversals whiff

Set up: Whiff st.LK, nj.HK

*Hits front
*4 frame safe jump, protects against most 3 frame reversals[/details]

Poundcake Ender (f,d,d/f + P, P)

[details=Spoiler]Midscreen Set Up: st.LK, c.MK…nj.HK (credit to Nos99)

*4 frame safe jump, avoids most 3 frame reversals.

-OR-

…jf/sjf.MK/HP

*Creates a very ambiguous situation between j.HP hitting normal and sjf.MK hitting cross up.
*Makes several DPs whiff.

Corner Set Up: Back dash, forward dash, nj.MK (credit to Nos99)

*4f Safe jump[/details]

**The nj.HK set ups are easily the most “reversal-proof” options you will have. This makes them ideal for threatening empty jump lows such as boosted cr.LK~cl.MP, or st.LK~cl.MP

These can easily be some of Bob’s most potent mix ups.*

Handy Chart! With Much Thanks to Nos99

Option Selects

**A quick refresher lesson, option selects (OSs) are when a series of buttons are used, often by having the first button input mask the following input. The goal is that if the first input whiffs, the timing of the second input will cause it to come out and hopefully punish whatever that option select was designed to punish. IF the opponent stays in place, and allows the attack to connect, then the second input will not come out at all.

**Option selects are still an absolutely integral part of this game. However, due to the “boost combo” system (ie. chaining L,M,H,H attacks) the timing is a lot more difficult to get consistently. It is still absolutely possible though, and once practiced it shouldn’t be a problem to perform on a regular basis.

**The timing of the follow up attack should be slow enough that a punishable boost combo does not occur, but quick enough to punish your opponent, and allow a follow up attack after that to maintain pressure.

Most Backdashes

[details=Spoiler]- cr.LP…cr.MK/HK, cl.MP

  • cr.LP…st.MK, cl.MP
    *This particular set up is dependent. It allows for a very beefy confirm into launch, but it varies on if it connects with the opponent in time, or if it resets them in the air (very bad for you.)[/details]

Short Backdashes/Crouchable Reversals

Spoiler

- cr.LK xx cl.MP (dp+MP)

Meaties

**A meaty is an attack which has multiple frames that will connect with an opponent. When you are performing a meaty attack, you are timing your attack to connect with the opponent during it’s later frames. This grants you a different advantage than previously possible.

**Range indicates the possible frame advantage the move can have. This is dependent on your timing of the attack. So… earliest [on hit/block] to latest [hit/block].

**> indicates ideal follow-ups. Give you a sense of why a particular meaty attack may be stronger than others.

  • st.MK (Range [-1/-5] - [+7/+3])
    >HP (overhead, combos with correct timing)
    >cr.LK
    >st.LP

  • cl.HK (Range [0/-5] - [+9/+4]
    > cancel into DP+K, PP
    > cancel into DP+K, LP for combo if confirmed
    > cr.MP
    > st.LK
    > st.MK
    > cr.MK
    > cr.LK

Anti-Roll Options

  • St.LK

  • nj.HK

  • cl.HK

Frame Data (courtesy of Nos99)

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“Sketch” Post

SFxTK2013: Bob Safe Jumps

DP+K, MP Ender (opponent quick tech):

4 frame Safejump (front)

  • About a step forward, crouch into sj.MK.
  • Looks like it hits back.

Cross-up (opponent quick tech)

  • Immediate st.LK, jf.MK.

  • Makes some (auto-correct) DPs whiff.

  • Can vary MK input. This will mess up auto-correct reversal timings.

    • All sagat DPs whiff on auto-correct or not.
    • Akuma auto-correct MP/HP/EX DPs will trade/hit. LP gets stuffed.
    • Akuma non auto-correct will whiff.
    • Guile FKs will auto-correct and whiff.
    • Can delay FK juuuust right to hit Bob. Very very difficult though.
    • Ryu MP, HP DP auto-correct and get beat, LP trades, EX auto-correct beats

  • Follow up 6f safe jump if the dont tech? Hesitate (crouch?) then nj.HP

Midscreen 5f safe jump (opponent tech, front)

  • Immediate st.LK, nj.HK
  • Somewhat easier to mix up with the cross up because the set up is the same.
  • Is a 5f safejump, but seems to make certain 3f reversals get blocked because of distance.
  • Blocks Chun-Li EX bird kick

Sweep:

4f Safe-Jump (front)

  • sjf.MK

Deep Sweep/Front Throw:

3-6(?) safe jump.

  • About a step forward, nj.HK.
  • Same as midscreen safe jump above. Makes a bunch of reversals get blocked because of distance, including Akuma DPs.
  • Deep sweep = reeeally deep sweep. No reason you should get sweep at that range. So this is mainly for front throw.
  • Can mix this set up with sjf.MK to hit behind.
  • Will still be beat by <=3f invincible supers because they can reach in time. Otherwise it’s about a 4f safe jump that protects against most 3 frame reversals.

Corner Trickiness!:

End in spiral rocky (opponent tech)

3f(!) Safe-Jump Cross under shenanigans.

Note that this one is very hard to time

  • Walk under, nj.HP
  • Can mix this up by slightly walking under, hesitating, then nj.HP to stay in front. That’s more like a 4f safe jump though.
    This is getting easier to time, and it is a veeeery nasty set up

March 22, 2013 - Nos99s Ambiguous Cross Ups

Poundcake (DP+P, P) Ender

  • St.LK, cr.MK, jump towards.

  • j.MK creates a pretty dirty cross up animation. Does some weird things to various characters.

  • My testing character is usually sagat, due to 3,4,5,6 frame reversals. But because of his large frame, the j.MK will hit in the front. He can block it either way though.

  • BUT, sagat’s DPs will in fact go under Bob’s jump arc, making them all whiff or be stuffed :open_mouth:

  • Smaller frame characters will get hit on the back, but DPs will not autocorrect, causing them to whiff.

  • An earlier j.MK will not cross-up, but you can block it as a cross-up. However, Bob will still land in front of his opponent.

  • With a certain timing, using j.HP instead of j.MK will cause Bob to hit in front. Akuma DPs will whiff, the opponent cannot crouch :smiley:

  • Sagat DPs will all hit this though

-Uh oh, looks like all characters might be able to block this one either way. Still, since it makes DPs whiff, may be useful for empty jumps?

OMG, another note. I can safely say this affects like all characters differently. I started using super jump, for a super ambiguous jump that always hits in back, but Hwoarang can DP out of it, Ryu DPs whiff.
However, the regular jump towards set up always hit both of them in front, with the same DP scenraios.

Conclusion: I’ll need to work on timing more, lol.

Something very interesting came out of this though.

  • St.LK, cr.MK, nj.HK

  • It seems like all of these set ups for dirty cross ups that make DPs whiff, are also set ups for nj.HK.

  • In these scenarios, nj.HK is a safe jump against…pretty much every reversal. I couldn’t even connect with sagat EX uppercut on this one.

INTERESTING POUNDCAKE FOLLOW UP

Charge CH, dash forward, EX special step > granchi cannon.

  • This will auto correct rolls, and if you slightly delay the granchi cannon, it will eat up reversals. Definitely a shenanigan, but it’s a very dangerous gimmick fro the opponent.
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So it looks like I still have quite a bit of formatting to do lol. Hopefully I can make it pretty, given some time. In any case, let me know if you have any suggestions, especially where I just lose/confuse you to shit, because these ideas are definitely scattered 8-}

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I love the idea of this thread. I’ve had some success messing with super jump mk after Spiral Rocky and noticed that it did cause some dp’s to whiff, but never thought of whiffing normals to set it up. Great find against Akuma, my main training partner (Danimitsu) will learn to hate this…not that he’s not already annoyed by Bob haha.

I really love the sweep setup. Off of anti-air Cracker I like to do chained s.lk>s.mk>Gaufrettes Punch, then sweep. Now I have a really great option off that. I’ll definitely fuck around more in the lab and see if I can contribute anything!

Also as a suggestion for the format, maybe if you listed the setup, then the followups would be in maybe spoiler tags with bullet points for each followup. Would definitely make it look a little bit cleaner.

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Lol yea, Dan’s face was not happy after I stomped him with Bob last ranbat :D.

Greatly appreciate the feedback btw. I love the unity and everything of the general threads, but it’s a little silly how no one even enters the character threads. The st.LK, gaufrettes punch into sweep is really cool. I thought you could only get belly bounce after the bound. I had just been using cr.MK/HP xx cracker.

I’ll definitely start adding and editing down when I get the time. I just wanted to get some info out while I had the chance. Spoiler tags are a must, and I’m starting to like the idea of having the meaty/roll sections.

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Good idea for a thread! Consider all your tech stolen. :slight_smile:

I like the idea of safejumps, but I think they will always be variable (or at least sometimes) as we don’t always juggle at the exact same height every time… right? I’m thinking that ambiguous jumps that avoid DPs may be the more reliable option?

Anyhow, I can try to contribute some stuff:

  • combo into poundcake midscreen
  • whiff s.LK, whiff c.MK, jump towards
  • depending on when you hit j.MK, it will hit on the front or crossup (late). Very ambiguous.
  • avoids wakeup DPs?

Here’s my favorite:

  • combo into poundcake midscreen
  • dash forward, neutral jump, whiff j.HP, jump towards
  • use j.MK to crossup
    or
  • use j.HP to hit on the front… I like to use s.MP afterward because I honestly don’t know which side I will end up on and it gives me time to react.
  • very auto-pilot and easy to time, and seems to avoid reversal DPs very well
  • they can crouch to make the j.HP whiff, but they most likely will not crouch
  • they will very likely start rolling once they know how dirty this is, so just wait after the neutral jump sometimes and you can react with throw.
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I think that’s just Dan’s face lol

Yeah I stumbled upon that by accident but it works really great and now gives a 4 frame safejump, so it’s pretty damn awesome.

One last thing is some anti roll stuff. Sometimes, but not all the time I like to do special step > Granchi if I spot a roll. It’s tight timing, but I noticed that if they tried to hit buttons as soon as they got up I was getting the crumple for big damage. I realize though that this is complete DP and backdash bait but I figured against some chars with less than stellar wakeups it could be alright as a occasional shenanigan.

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Nice! All excellent set ups. My next goal was to get some set ups after poundcake, so that’s awesome that was immediately what came up :).

As far as safe jumps though, I think they’re still a super important part of this game. I get what you’re saying about juggle height, but from my testing spiral rocky seems to juggle at exactly the same height every time. At least that was the case with spiral rocky, cr.HP xx spiral rocky. Plus, a lot of set ups can come after throw or sweep so the juggle height doesn’t apply.

The nj.HK safe jumps are especially promising because they usually put you at just the right distance to pressure if the opponent decides to roll. Plus, DP tag cancels are way to useful to resist in this game, so having a solid pressure option against almost every reversal will be very useful in the long run.

EDIT: @Hippo

Honestly, if you can get opponents to hesitate, I say go for a granchi cannon. I think Bob is really good at getting people to hesitate/confusing them to press a button because let’s be honest, if you don’t check bob with reversals and button presses, he gets away with murder. I like special step > granchi and I’m trying to use it more. Especially since it means absolutely monster damage. On CH I found a ~700 one bar pandora combo with bob/Abel.

Since special step options can reward you quite a bit, (and you need to press buttons against Bob) I started messing around with EX special step. I figured, if I can bust it out in an unexpected boost chain, they might think a gap is coming and try to press buttons. Unfortunately, if you cancel a medium or heavy with ex step, the armor ends before any reasonable counter attack. If you can cancel after a light attack however the armor will eat a lot of moves.

BUT! Where this is going is that I think it can be very useful for oki. If you can time it to OS a roll, the armor should still be active when the opponent recovers, letting bob blow right through reversals/pokes if they recover normally. It’s a questionable use of meter depending on how reliable it is, but even if they block its a guaranteed +2 situation.

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Okay I can see where you’re going with that. When I played Abel I used armor setups like that to just soak up reversals and if I got the hit great, but if it whiffed even better.

I used the sweep safejump off the anti air cracker>poundcake, s.lk>gauffretes punch, sweep. Worked like a charm, so now off a regular anti air you get like 300 dmg and a safe jump setup that doesn’t go quite as close making it easier to catch rolls if you read them. Excellent work man.

Something I need to test tomorrow is after Rocky in the corner I did MP spinner ball into cl.hk trying to get that maximum advantage. Seemed like it was working but needs further testing.

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Okay, so added a little bit more today with regards to Nos’ set ups. There’s definitely some potential there, but I ran into the problems that made me hesitant to set any of this info in stone just yet. His jump and jumping attacks are just so weird that it’s difficult to get anything to happen consistently. I feel like it’s there though, but it certainly requires strict timing.

I love the cross under into cl.HK in the corner. Spinner ball definitely helps with the timing. I was trying to use special step, as the LK version looks like its crossing under but stays in front, and the MK version goes under. But the timing for cl.HK is much harder off of special step :frowning:

EDIT: Alright, so I got a few of the more consistent set ups listed in the OP. Also put a few of the option selects up I have been working on, along with one from Dr.Grammar. It would be going a lot smoother if my computer didn’t JUST slow to a crawl every time I try to edit my OP.

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What results are you getting? It may be different on different characters because of the way hitboxes interact maybe?

I also can’t get sweep > sj.MK to work? It always whiffs. When I looked up the values, it appears that both jump and superjump and exactly 35 frames anyway?

I think I may have found another safejump though:

  • spiral rocky, whiff (plinked) c.LK, jump forward, j.MK or j.HP
  • works if they quick recover

Strangely enough, I can’t get the j.RH to hit? Also, can the timing of the opponent’s quick recover be variable? I think I remember reading that somewhere for SF4?

Anyway, I think I’m going to go and crunch some numbers, to try and find out the exact wakeup values we need to be hitting, and the durations of our filler options. Hopefully find more natural (automatic) setups, because this “walk forward for X frames” sort of stuff will never be consistent for me. :frowning:

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Huh, that’s strange. I was playing a Hwo player yesterday and this was a fine safejump for his DP (Which I’m assuming is 5 frames). Maybe the timing is off by a tad?

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I’m not too surprised, because a few of these are safe jumps where you do it too quick if you jump right away, but it’s too tight to whiff a normal in between. The super part jump after the sweep might just cause a few frames of crouching before the jump.

As a fellow Hakan main I can totally get having more strict set ups for these :D. At a certain point with him though I just started doing j.HK and oil dive set ups raw, so I’ll try to get out of those habits and see what I can find. Like I said though some of them might be to tight to whiff a normal.

The timing for techs can definitely be variable in this game. I would say more so than in sf4. But most of these seem to work on both? I would say you should try to get the timing for the j.HK set up down though, because it’s awesome. I’m having a problem with the cross up MKs that I thought I would, namely that they poke me out of the follow up all day. It’s so damn frustrating, it’s like it has no blockstun whatsoever.

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Ok, the frames have been counted, numbers crunched, and I’m sick of the damn lab for a while lol

Some interesting results though! But first, a disclaimer…

I’m just a dude, a guy, labbing it up. I could make mistakes on this stuff, and I’m hoping that you guys can understand this. I test multiple times, and go after and re-test inconsistent results to pin down the the accurate values, but I’m still just a a regular joe and I can make mistakes and miss stuff. If you notice something fishy, PLEASE chase it down, and please give me some peer review on this stuff. I don’t give a shit if I’m wrong, I just want accuracy above all else!

I’ve updated my personal Bob frame data chart pretty significantly:

  • fully updated to 2013 (AFAIK?)
  • included values for boosted normals
  • jump and dash values
  • total whiff frames for everything
  • put cracker/step/spinner followups as individual moves, found values for each… this took FOREVER holy fuck
  • corrected some data (special step duration was incorrect? etc)

I also went and found the values for all of Bob’s knockdown-to-getup moves. In other words, the exact amount of frames starting from the first frame Bob recovers after knocking the opponent down, to the first frame the opponent is vulnerable after getting up.

Knowing the knockdown-to-getup values, and also the total whiff duration values, means we should be able to come up with sequences for perfect safejumps pretty easily. (Knockdown-to-getup value - (prejump + jump duration) = Total Whiff Frames Required) You guys probably get this, but I’ll spell it out anyway for any newcomers. Basically, the final number is the amount of frames you have to waste (by whiffing stuff, etc), and you can find the appropriate attacks in the total whiff duration column in the spreadsheet above. Ideally you will want to use moves that can be buffered (dashes, jumps) or plinkable moves to ensure no frames are wasted and the math should work out perfectly.

I’ll run through some examples:

Boosted c.HK KtG 35 - (prejump 4 + neutral jump 31) = 0 Whiff Frames Required.
So after a boosted sweep in the corner, you don’t need to whiff anything, and can just neutral jump MK for a perfect natural safejump.

Spiral Rocky perfect quick recover KtG 57 - (prejump 4 + diagonal jump 35) = 18 Whiff Frames Required
So after a spiral rocky, you need to spend 18 frames before jumping towards. It just so happens that a whiffed c.LK has a total duration of 18 frames, and is plinkable too, so you can do it after a spiral rocky, and then jump towards for a perfect 4f DP safejump. If you spend 19 frames it will be a 5f safejump, 20 frames for a 6f safejump, etc.

Now here is where it gets REALLY interesting…

It turns out that Bob’s jump duration is indeed variable. I had a hunch before (and I’m probably not the only one), but this is pretty wacky, and seems to depend on the type of air attack you do, and also when you do it during the jump. I haven’t tested with every normal, but here are sume results so far:

  • landing with active j.HP will reduce your jump duration by 1 frame
  • completing a j.RH (not fully outstretched during landing) will reduce your jump duration by 1 frame
  • landing with a active j.RH will reduce your jump duration by 2 frames.

Taking the example above
Spiral Rocky perfect quick recover KtG 57 - (prejump 4 + diagonal jump 35) = 18 Whiff Frames Required
I instead whiff a c.MP, which has a whiff duration of 20 frames. My jump attack should now lose to a 4f DP, but if I do a perfect j.RH, I actually reduce my jump duration by 2 frames and I can block the DP!

I wonder if other characters are like this? Regardless, here is the sheet detailing the numbers:

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Oh yeah… I should mention that jump medium kick doesn’t seem to affect duration, so that can be your default jump attack if you’re doing the math.

Also keep in mind that I haven’t yet had any time to actually USE this information lol. I’m hoping you guys can help me with this part, and find the best safe jump setups, and also help me figure out just how the variable jump durations affect safe jumps?

Because while I’m pretty certain that the variable jump duration is accurate, I also haven’t yet put it into practice (except for that one example after spiral rocky in the example above) so that is something else I want to test more with.

Basically a lot of this is still just science from the lab that needs to be put to the test. :slight_smile:

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Ok, back from the lab again… A triple post with more updated SCIENCE!

lol

I went and tried to map out possible safejump setups using the data I had found earlier. There are some moves that simply won’t allow natural, or strictly timed setups (forward throw for example) for there are also lots of moves that will.

After trying to include only bufferable and plinkable moves, I still managed to come up with a RIDICULOUS amount of safejump setups to try out. Granted, some of these will be worse than others, but after testing them a little bit, I gotta say that this shit is pretty sweet lol

  • Poundcake in the corner, backdash, front dash, neutral jump MK. Easy-peasy!
  • End a combo with s.HP (bound) into empty RH-Swift Step, Hold up and do early whiff jump RH, Keeping holding up to do an easy safe jump with MK!

Even better… That Rocky, whiff c.LK safe jump I mention earlier? If you buffer a c.LP during your landing frames (4 frame window, it’s easy) and they don’t quick recover, you should be able to hold up and do another safe jump RH. This blew my mind because it means that after a spiral rocky, and they quick recover, you get a 4f safe jump. If they don’t quick recover, you STILL get a 4f safe jump!

I still need you guys to help me test this stuff, and I also have to get out of the damn lab and try this stuff out myself, but it’s looking good so far! And if you guys notice better or easier timing setups, let me know and I’ll update it! Anyway, here’s the link

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Hrmm… I’m getting inconsistent results when juggling with poundcake. The height at which they are hit definitely seems to make a difference… Also the same setup is having different wake-up timings against different characters? Do different character have different wakeup speed? I wouldn’t be surprised. I also never knew that there are 7 landing frames after a super jump instead of the regular 4? Does anyone know the cancel/block rules for these?

It also seems pretty difficult to consistently do the perfect j.RH to negate 2 frames from a jump. :frowning:

I also removed some of the setups that don’t work in ingame due to juggling, distance etc.

Sorry if I’m cluttering up the thread guys… Just talking out loud here, trying to wrap my brain around it all.

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Clutter away, nos. Great lab work, tons of data we can use. Sorry about the lack of feedback, but school really needs to take a priority for me right now, so I’m trying to refrain from too much labbing/online play.

You’re labwork is definitely more concrete than mine though :P, so I’m definitely trying to wrap my head around all the numbers as well, especially how exactly Bob’s jump trajectories are affected by certain normals. I was pretty sure his neutral jump is affected by all of his jump normals too, as nj.MK seems to drop him faster. Cracker, poundcake definitely seems like one of those moves where juggle height can be variable. What I like about this game’s juggle system though is that it’s completely possible to delay and control the height at which you juggle your opponent. I would also be surprised if characters had different wakeup timings, as I thought they fixed that, but sometimes it does feel that way. As far as the j.RH cancel frames, are those frames taken off of landing recovery, since Bob already lands?

I’ll try to apply some of this to real matches when I head to my scene’s ranbat this saturday. I’m thinking there’s a lot of promise to spiral rocky corner cross-unders, throw/sweep/pound cake safe jumps/cross-ups. I really want to test out certain nj.RH set ups.

19

Those nj.RH setups are really picky it seems. :confused: But for your question, the frames are lost during the airborne part.

It’s like this:
4f prejump
35f airborne (31f for neutral jump)
4f landing recovery (7f for super jump)

You know how one of Bob’s legs points straight down during fully extended j.RH? It’s almost as if this legs touches the ground and causes him to land earlier. The same goes for fully extended j.HP. Once you land you still have to go through all the landing frames before you can attack, but you can cancel it into block on the 3rd frame. I don’t know how super jump landing works yet though?

Please let me know if there are some that you can’t get to work, because I’ve actually found that some of the original frame data is incorrect. Some of my results are just formulas applied to the existing data, and if the existing data is off… Yeahhhhh

Also one move that I forgot about is alpha counter. This is definitely a move I want to find safe jumps for, because I can’t get close enough afterward to go for an ambiguous jump in (or can I?) I’ll try to get those knockdown values later today.

20

Hrm… this is weird…

I can’t get the jump attacks to affect the jump duration the same way during super jumps. I can only get j.RH to cut one frame… not two, and j.HP doesn’t cut it down at all?

Why is this so fucking complicated? lol